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April 17, 2003
For Our Dead: No to EU, No to UN
So, now that the blood of Americans has barely dried on the streets of Baghdad, Umm Qasr, Nasiriya and many other cities and towns of Iraq, the delicate elites of the UN and EU wish to give the United States suggestions on how to be a good world citizen in Iraq. Perhaps the UN would also like to tell the family of Cpl. Bernard Gooden, age 22, of Mt. Vernon, N.Y. who was killed April 4 during a firefight in central Iraq how they should mourn and remember their son and brother? Perhaps, too, the EU would like to pick out the style casket that will contain the body of Lance Cpl. David K. Fribley, age 26 of Lee, Fla. who was just one of nine Marines killed when a group of Iraqis pretended to surrender but then opened fire on Marines near An Nasiriyah. No, no, better yet, perhaps President Chiraq has an opinion about which funeral home should be chosen by the family of Spc. James M. Kiehl age 22, of Comfort, Texas who was killed on March 23 when the convoy he was traveling in was ambushed in southern Iraq. I am certain that German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has a view as to what songs should be sung at the services held for Sgt. 1st Class John W. Marshall age 50, of Los Angeles, who was killed in action on April 8, when he was struck by a rocket-propelled grenade during an Iraqi ambush in Baghdad. And we would all be interested to know what Kofi Annan thinks the kids should wear to their daddy's funeral, that of Lance Cpl. Donald J. Cline, Jr., 21, of Sparks, Nev. who left a wife and two children. I could go on. Yes, I could continue to name the leaders of Europe and put with each of their names the name of a father or son, a brother or an uncle who won't be going home to their families this spring. They won't be going home because they are dead. For you see, they didn't have "views" about Iraq, they had courage. They didn't have "policies" about Iraq, they had guts. These dead soldiers didn't have "conferences" about Iraq, they had battle plans. The didn't have "carefully crafted statements" about Iraq, they had guns. And now, here it comes; wafting over the Atlantic like a stench comes the advice, the suggestions, the dictums, the objections, the disquiet, the whispers, and the anger and disgust of Europeans and the UN bureaucracy... and I "No!" to it all. I have no interest in their opinions any longer. Except for a few countries on the continent, their opinions and thoughts carry no weight in my house, in my country. Let the memory of Bernard advise teh US how to look for the weapon's of mass destruction. Let the memory of David inform as to how best to get the water running. Let the memory of James tell us how we should sell the oil. Let the memory of John assist us in distributing the medicine. And, let the memory of Donald tell the United States of America what kind of future the children of Iraq will have. Posted By PoliticaObscura at April 17, 2003 04:41 PM | TrackBackComments
Since the Euros were willing to tolerate Hussein indefinitely, they should be perfectly willing to tolerate any state of affairs in Iraq that is equal to or better than the state of affairs under Hussein. When things are worse in Iraq under the US than they were under Hussein, I will listen to what they have to say. Which is to say, never. Posted by: T. Hartin at April 17, 2003 05:01 PMHow about comparing resume's? I think the US resume for bringing decromacy to facist countries versus what the UN has done? Posted by: Curtis Robb at April 17, 2003 05:02 PMHow about comparing resume's? I think the US resume for bringing decromacy to facist countries versus what the UN has done kind of tells it all. Posted by: Curtis Robb at April 17, 2003 05:03 PMWhen I hear the first condemnations of the Russians in Grozny, I may deign to notice that someone is speaking. When the words "Ivory Coast" passes Kofi's lips in a less than positive manner, I will sense movement. When the term"Jenin" refers to the hash that the UN has made of the Palestinian situation, we can talk. Posted by: Kmartin at April 17, 2003 05:08 PMThere are no words in which to describe the wrath I feel towards these reprehensible cowardly cockroach nation-states in having the unmitigated temerity to plead for any say on even the tiniest grain of sand. All I have to say to these collective pieces of shit is; The United States doesn't get to decide what kind of future Iraqi children should have. Iraqis do. It's our job to help rebuild, keep warlords from destroying a fragile democracy, and then get out of the way. Posted by: Maciej Ceglowski at April 17, 2003 05:33 PMSince it was George W. Bush, who put his political future on the line to clean up this mess, I think he should be the one to call the shots on forming a new government, calling in the help who cooperated with him. Let the stallers and thinkers and pessimists go do what they have been doing for the last few years. Stalling! Posted by: Gene Harper at April 17, 2003 05:35 PMUN experience? Palestine and Israel, Kosovo, Lebanon, Somalia... None of these people would be dead now if they were not sent to IRAQ in the first place. 9/11??? WMD??? Osama??? The only goverment office protected in Bagdad by the US Army???
And none of those people would be dead if Saddam had been a good chap and shot himself. Thats a totally mute point stevey boy. As far as all this goes I have to side with Gene, those who waged the war should lead the reconstruction. Isn't that what Geneva says? Seriously, kid why don't you be a little more informed before you start shooting you mouth. Posted by: Yongilman at April 17, 2003 11:05 PMThose EU leaders can't possibly really believe that the UN will do anything other than an abysmal job at restoring Iraq. How could people intelligent enough to get to those positions not take account of history? The UK's and US's histories of restoring war-torn countries are far, far better than the UN's. I suspect that part of the reason they want the UN to control Iraq is because they know the US would do a better job and leave the Iraqis obviously better off, while the UN would be a dismal failure, leaving the country politically unstable and miserable. Then they can blame Bush for it. The life of a liberator, working the check point six months after CNN goes home. Checking IDs, searching cars, under threat of getting shot buy a unhappy – heavily armed – population. If I was a soldier there I would want to go home by this point. But you will have to stay to protect our vital interest ie... contractors and pipelines, also to prop up our chosen government against the Islam fundamentalist political parties that are forming now in the streets. Oh where are all the contractors for cleaning up the mess in Afghanistan? or is that a job for the UN??? Posted by: Steve Christensen at April 17, 2003 11:31 PMYeah Steve, and you were VERY concerned about our soldiers before the war too, right? What MESS in Afghanistan? You mean it's not England there yet? Are you trying to allege that it's WORSE now than it was under the Taliban? The truth is just too hard for you lefties to deal with. Al Queda has been destroyed. There are no terrorist camps of any consequence in Afghanistan anymore and the people there have a shot at a decent life. That's not better than it was? You lefties are all utopianist under the skin. If life isn't just perfect, then it sucks. Posted by: R. McLeod at April 18, 2003 01:43 AMDear Command Post, Dear Command Post, Reading the posts on this discussion board The theories that are laid out are interesting, I would like to know if any of you believe It is fascinating that in these discussions, Any news source you read is going to present In the end you are just a consumer. Yes Afghanistan has been a mess for a long time even before the USA gave Muslim fighters millions of dollars of weapons. The very same people that became the Taliban and Al Queda, I don't think they have been destroyed, I think they just changed their address to Pakistan. Yes A nuclear armed Military dictatorship. One of the only countries to acknowledge the Taliban when they held power in Kabul. Why did the collation of the willing attack and occupy Iraq??? Was it to stop WMD getting in the hands of terrorist, Revenge for 9-11 because Saddam was behind it. Or to keep the trade of Oil in Dollars not Euros. How much money did the white house put in the budget for Afghanistan aid???? ZERO, they forgot the un finished business there.
and in the end, Jonathan, my pocketbook bites. Just ask the French now. Posted by: rulen at April 18, 2003 07:59 AMJust because there wasn't a line-item about "Aid to Afghanistan" doesn't mean there aren't any US taxpayer dollars being spent to assist Afghanistan get up on its own feet and running its own self; there are beaucoup bucks being spent from the budgets of multiple departments of the US government. That old tripe was soundly thrashed months ago, so repeating it now is digging up lying rubbish for no good purpose. Blow it out your butt steve. Saddam was a terrorist friendly nation. It wasn't argued that he had ties to Al Qaeda even, just that he had ties to terrorists, he clearly has the capability to create WMD, and there is no reason that he would not supply these WMD to terrorists. He may just have direct ties to Hamas and Hezbollah and those groups, but he has ties to Syria, which is willing to pass the WMD to any terrorist (even the IRA has camps in Syria) or Hamas may hand over the supplies to Al Qaeda. It was quite the justifiable reason for us to go there. Not to mention that Saddam was a dictator of the worst degree. Would you prefer that we didn't go and let all of those people suffer steve? It is nice to sit here on the Internet and be able to sit here and discuss it thousands of miles away from the situation, but those are still people, no different from you or I, they have dreams, feelings, and a future. They were stripped of all of that by a brutal dictator. You enjoy the freedom to question our government, they would be fed into a plastic shredder. What is your argument for us to have not gone there steve? There are many excellent arguments for us to go. Posted by: Curtis at April 18, 2003 08:41 AMI would like to know if any of you believe that your opinion counts in this matter? It appears that in these debates that you are either preaching to the choir or sounding like a 5 year old to your opponents. Either way you are debating with people who will make no difference in the outcome. I see the source of your confusion. In the end, I am a citizen. I vote. I vote with the information I gather from the world around me, which may change my views. If someone makes a good argument that changes my opinion, it might change my vote in the next election. The collective weight of all of these citizens arguing and debating and changing their minds is expressed in the elections, which can change the people in power, and thus change the policy. Or, it can leave the people in power, expressing confidence in the policy, which then continues on. It's the way democracy works. You should read up on it some time. Posted by: Jeff Medcalf at April 18, 2003 08:55 AM"In the end you are just a consumer." Jonathan, that is so wrong, on several levels. The blogosphere and similar on-line discusion forums are a leading-edge opinion-foming environment, operating at Internet speed. (Sorry for all the buzz-words.) Lines of argument get stress-tested there, and then spread elsewhere. The popular support for this war is strong, and the opinions formed here were a part of that. But more deeply, I reject that stylishly cynical "just a consumer" line - I am a citizen, and I care about the important issues of the day. Don't you dare try to stuff me in that box. Yes, I am not a government functionary, and I don't make policy - but policy makers listen to popular opinion in this country, and I (and those I can persuade to agree with me) are a part of that. Jonathan, a) What Jeff said b) If you believe what you say, why are YOU posting? Posted by: Mike Plaiss at April 18, 2003 09:40 AMI'm not a consumer. I am first a husband and father, second a citizen of USA, third a soldier. I will likely be one of the bored soldiers in the forces stationed in Iraq to help the citizens of that country reclaim some of the dignity that all humans should be allowed to have. I don't suspect that Steve or Jonathan feel as though they have earned the right to claim to be a citizen, since they so clearly adhere to the thought that they are simply pawns to some greater power. I won't buy into that, nor would I buy into the "Starship Troopers" definition of citizenship, since I know many other citizens who help define the world they live in through action. It is simply harder to produce positive results in life than it is to complain about negative happenstance. This is the defining stance behind all of the anti-war demonstrations. Complain, complain loudly and actively, but do nothing to further the human cause except point out that which you believe is not working. Don't expect me to believe that a "Die-in" is activism towards a better world for me and my children. Bringing clear, potable water to a third-world village is making a change for the better. I've done that, and many others have done things equivalent to that, without the media being notified. Laying in the street to block traffic is equivalent to the two-year-old throwing a temper tantrum in the ceral aisle until he gets his sugar pops. Jonathan Renwick, "In the end you are just a consumer." con·sum·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-smr) n. One that acquires goods or services for direct use or ownership rather than for resale or use in production and manufacturing. A heterotrophic organism that ingests other organisms or organic matter in a food chain. But thanks anyways PREACHER, still very entertaining. heheheh... (big smile) Question: Don't you believe what you just wrote as fact? If not... amen; If you do... your horse is too high. ( or your are FRENCH same opinion of yourself but without the horse ) :o) In the end WE are just AMERICANS... with the inheritable right to say what we want, regardless of your opinion, or mine for that matter. ...at least I AM and i value anyones opinion whether fact or fiction. Mainly, so i can help less fortunate souls in thier misguided opinions/agendas. Has for those that consider us Cowboys, at least we get off our horse every now and then... Posted by: Freedom at April 18, 2003 10:52 AMSteve Christiansen shut your PIE HOLE! You are a no nothing liberal bitch....thats why the American companies are gonna go into Iraq with speed and efficiency. It was the UN and AID who are still pushing papers in Afghanistan, with not ONE road built or repaired. And you lack compassion in this debate and are thus disqualified. Too bad this 'post' doesnt have an IGNORE button...and the majority agree with me bitch! Posted by: Dick D at April 18, 2003 10:54 AMJonathan Renwick should be advised that the phenominal success of Command Post has not gone unnoticed in the popular media. I have faith that our collective voice is sure to have an impact with those of influence; we are not simply "preaching to the choir". If we still existed in the age of "the spoils of war", that alone might give us cause to exclude others from putting their boots on the ground where our blood was spilled. But our only satisfaction here will be in knowing that the world is a more secure place and the Iraqi people have indeed been liberated. That said, why in the world, based upon their track record, would we want to trust the job of reconstruction to the UN? I wish there was a competent and responsible international agency that could be trusted with the task; but, in today's world, it does not exist. Steve brought up the old oil sales in Euros vs Dollars bit and I'm curious if someone can explain the thinking behind this. From what I understand oil is a commodity, bought and sold at market value at the time of sale. That means that means whatever the Euro is worth on that day or whatever the dollar is worth on that day. It should not matter if sales are made in Euros or Dollars. Am I missing something, or is this another War for Oil, Afghan Winter, insanity? Posted by: ruprecht at April 18, 2003 11:43 AMSteve, your ignorance is showing. My daughter has been in Afghanistan since September with a U.S. Army Civil Affairs unit. Things are getting better there, and we are having a positive impact on the lives of real live people. One example: the bombed out HQ of the local Taliban in Mazur-e-Sharif is now a school for girls (which my daughters unit played a part in rebuilding). She found the irony of turning a symbol of oppression into a center of learning and opportunity very sweet indeed. Posted by: John McCrarey at April 18, 2003 11:56 AMI am glad to see that there are logical arguments
Main reason for having a nihilistic attitude One last question. Do the people you vote Jonathan Renwick makes an epistemological point which needs to be disputed, as well. In addition to his cynicism regarding whether public discussion can have any impact, he is also implicitly cynical about whether any truth exists - or can be ascertained - in these circumstances. The answer is - yes, there is a truth, and it can be determined, though not easily. That is, in fact, one of the purposes of open discussion and participation in a free society; to arrive incrementally at the truth about the world. To argue otherwise is more than cynical; it is self-contradictory. That argument is, in essence, "there is no truth but the fact that there is no truth". A public policy based on such a conception _is_, indeed, one in which only raw political power - however obtained - matters. So, if Jonathan truly believes this, then he can have no argument about whatever outcome follows. Let's hold him at his word, then, and keep up the pressure toward the outcome which is just: that the righteous victors in this war of self-defence should have the say in determining the nature of the regime which is left behind. Posted by: Roger Zimmerman at April 18, 2003 12:01 PMJonathan, I too am a tech worker. I've been working less than 20 hours a week for two years. I too have seen many potential projects moved off shore. You know what that means, I'm not competitive enough for my clients. My bad. This is not 'un-American', this is competition you dweeb. Get a new skill set, innovate, work harder! We in the tech sector have been so over paid for so long because being from an advanced nation we had little competition. Now that has changed. Change, adapt, and overcome you slacker. ;) Posted by: W Peak at April 18, 2003 12:53 PMI've cruised through the posts and have one question: Why is anybody responding to Steve? He keeps changing the subject and everybody is falling for it. He is changing the subject for good reason; case closed. Now let's see some witty repartee; entertain me! Posted by: Tongue Boy at April 18, 2003 01:13 PMJust a couple of points, Feel free to bash me: We have entered a new world order. The cold war has just finally ended and now it is a global war on terror and countries that support terror. The US will be at the lead and go in where they want to go and when. Old coalitions will be broken and new ones will be forged. Our good intentions will be seen by many as being too aggressive. The reason why people were so animated and engaged with the War in Iraq was because they sensed the change to this new structure. I dont think this will last very long, maybe 15-20 years. Just need to give people reason to not get so dire that they turn to blowing themseves up. We started in Iraq, can this lead to internal reform or revolt in other countries in the Middle East? Kofi Annan is head of the UN, an entity established to prevent war, almost too much. He states the common opinion of the council not necessarily his own. Therefore it may be unfair to bash him. It is like We cannot front the bill alone in Iraq. Therefore the UN will have some sort of role. And, if it goes bad, to take some blame. I have no problem to those who want to boycott French products. However, I am concerned with continuing bad relations with the main EU countries, France and Germany. Even if it is le francais wimpy. They lead the EU process and whether you want to believe it or not, the EU insitution is gaining power. Wait 50 years! Syria, even if a rogue state, did raise a good point. How do you expect the middle eastern countries to not want to posess WMD if Israel has it too. I know it is a catch 22 of sorts. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. A foe country near us had the capabilities. No way in hell we would get rid of ours before they got rid of theirs. May God Bless America. Conservatives, Liberals, and Globalist alike. I am a citizen of the world but damn America is nice. Posted by: John at April 18, 2003 05:07 PM1)Change, adapt, and overcome you slacker. I guess everone is done with their diatribe of the original posted article, which none of the comments or very few seemed to address. Not even the comments from Jonathan Renwick, which I liked by the way. Although I have to argue with W.Peak as to why cheaper is better when talking about offloading work to third world countries who have no compunction in paying 30 cents an hour or using child labor - things that Amercia -USA- has fought for and against since 1865. Why is it considered competition because they bid lower when they may have the inferior product - or - use slave labor to make a superior product. Quite a quandry. And do you all really think the blogosphere as Eric called it is read by the masses - please - a fad, which doesn't mean it will go away, but it also doesn't mean that it will change the world in any meaningful way either. Back to W.Peak, you may think you were overpaid, but not me! I'll take that extra income you don't seem to want. I am also not saying that everyone is worth that high pay in the tech field, but those who are are worth every penny. Posted by: Robert at April 18, 2003 06:19 PM"Kofi Annan is head of the UN, an entity established to prevent war, almost too much. He states the common opinion of the council not necessarily his own. Therefore it may be unfair to bash him." john, you should read up on kofi annan, he actually is worthy of a lot of bashing, you should read this article: http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021014&s=foer101402 the UN is morally corrupt in a lot of ways, syria heading the human rights commission for example, i'd rather we accepted all of the cost and the risks of failure than have mr annan's bloody hands on iraq. "But, when you are not part of the majority on some belief can you really make a change?" PoliticaObscura, Fucking ass wipes Posted by: Jimi Hendrix at April 19, 2003 12:27 AMLooks like the Purple Haze has raised its ugly head dear Jimmy. The list is not nothing compared to the mass graves bearing Sadaam's fingerprints. Yes, we acknowledge, with sorrow, every innocent. Nice touch with the sign off, but it sounds like diaper wipes would be more appropriate in your case. If your a Jimmy fan read this and understand - Lux Sit. Posted by: ez writer at April 19, 2003 04:54 AMJimi dies in his own vomit once again. Jonathan has a point about jobs going off-shore...indeed the H-1B visas bring foreign workers to this country while our engineers struggle to find work. That's just wrong. It's a part of the open-borders idiocy that let the 9-11 hi-jackers write their own visas and wander around the country applying for cropduster loans. Posted by: Noel at April 19, 2003 10:01 AMJonathan You are finding it hard to find work in hi-tech ? My heart bleeds for you. NOT. Your work problems are down to you. I am a re-treaded guy over 60, self-trained 5 years ago. But I can find work in hi-tech. Please piss off and find yourself a job. Don't start an anti-US rant . Just - "get on yer bike, sunshine!" Posted by: JohninLondon at April 19, 2003 11:06 PMPost a comment
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