Haha! While I'm a Bush supporter that really is an asinine statement. I also happen to be in the technology industry, a business owner and fierce supporter of American workers (not the labor unions!).

I'm also an outspoken critic of outsourcing and this ridiculous talk that it's having no effect on America.

We're outsourcing our entry level skills that our people require to move into the higher level positions through experience. For example, outsourcing a Software Engineer/Programmer just killed the chance of that American worker ever progressing to Software Architect or Software Designer because those positions require experience they get from the entry level positions, not schooling.

It's sad and these politicians just think giving some school grants will fix the lack of experience needed for higher positions.

I was pretty disappointed in Bush's statement. I, too, am a tech worker -- I've got a MS in Computer Science. Getting an Associate degree -- and notice, he didn't give you any ideas about what to study, did he? -- isn't going to help me when good paying computer jobs are being offshored to India and China. I didn't half kill myself working full time and getting a Master's full time to hang out a drive thru window asking, "You want to supersize that order?" Other people I know with the same kind of schooling/experince I have are taking 10-20K CUTS in their salaries as their jobs are offshored and they have to find another job.

The principle of comparative advantage results in increased incomes and consumption levels among all trading partners. That comparative advantage however, is usually associated with increased structural unemployment in the importing state. It's a matter of having the wrong human capital to pair up with the physical plant.

There are three possible solutions to the state that is suffering from structural unemployment:

1. Erect trade barriers. That would protect the jobs but the welfare of the population of the protectionist state will necessarily decline. Expect more inflation, lower standards of living, rigid labor markets, and moribund domestic industires unable to compete in world markets.

2. Put the structurally unemployed on the dole; variation on the theme: WPA type programs.

3. Retrain the structurally unemployed workers. Transition as many of these workers as possible into job skillsets in which a comparative advantage is increasing. Unfortunately, many folks simply do not have the capacity to acquire those new skills so there will always be a residual segment of the population who will be unable to maintain their present standard of living. They will either be underemployed or will end up on the dole.

I don't think very many of you are paying attention to what's going on. Over the last ten years most post-secondary institutions have been quietly retooling themselves to make the transition from being primarily a provider of "lifetime" education to teenagers and twenty-somethings to being "continuing education" providers to adults. THAT'S WHERE THE DEMAND IS.

Folks, we're simply going to have to understand and accept that constant change is here to stay. Moreover, it simply doesn't fall within the scope of government's power to "protect" us from this reality. Here in Austin, Texas, a huge college town, it's already mostly understood that working for a corporation isn't any longer a lifetime goal, an end unto itself, but rather a means to a diifferent end, a stepping stone where one gains the experiential knowledge necessary to eventually begin one's own enterprise. The question isn't whether this mean that someone originally formally trained in programming Fortran for mainframe systems may find herself retiring to a small business selling cuttings of blueberry and blackberry cultivars around the world via the internet, but rather if this is indeed a bad thing or not.

:jackson

I'm an engineer, and my coworkers are increasingly foreign born and work is heading out to their home countries. However, I have to say that very few americans are taking the hard courses and engineering classes. One of my former companies couldn't hire enough programmers, and maxed out the green cards bringing in people from all over. They would have loved to save the hassle of dealing with immigration, but management couldn't find enough programmers in the US who were willing to work for competitive pay and live in Michigan. That company is expanding, but they've been forced to open offices overseas just to keep up with demand.

I already took his advice, eight years before he was sworn in, in exactly the circumstances he describes.

What's the problem?

If you people demanded less money, you'd keep your jobs.

Spade,

I have actually spoken to my employer [very large defense contractor] about that. Completely outside their ability to compute.

Many large American companies, despite existing in a free market externally, are internally organized as a Stalinist command and control economy. Any flexibility that would suggest that top management should have a flexible wage is a non-starter.

Worse, Jackson, the intellectual property agreements in most states tend to discourage external professional activilty aimed at forming a new business.

If Bush and the Republicans actually believed in a free enterprise system, their first, easiest action should have been implementing the kinds of laws that exist in Massachusetts and California preventing intellectual property clamps on corporate employees.

"just get off your ass and go to community college. I hear McDonald’s is hiring."

Once again I have serious problems with Solonor.

I graduated from High School early and went first to a community college, then on to a state university. I got a degree in Chemical Engineering, the highest paying 4 year degree then and still probably now.

There is NOTHING WRONG with going to a community college and to imply that people who do so can qualify only for low paying jobs is a degrading slur. Thanks to that community college, I now pay more federal income tax than most people make in a year.

To pile on a bit more...

"So, to all you fancy-pants university grads in the IT field who are losing your jobs to outsourcing, those who used to have the jobs of the 21st century, "

By the way, I happen to be in the IT industry, paying more federal taxes than a majority of Americans make in a year.

How is that possible? I . ADD . VALUE. Simple as that. People are [generally] paid in proportion to the value they provide. If you are a programmer, unfortunately now you are a "commodity". Find a way to ADD MORE VALUE. I did. It isn't that hard. Really.

I'm not a programmer, I'm in computer security. You'd think it's a growing field, high paying, right? Wrong. When I went for my masters, I picked a hard science (as opposed to a "soft" science like psychology), growing field, etc., and I studied the hard stuff -- neural networks, AI, security. Now, ten years later, we're being told "oh, go back to school." And study what? That's the question no one's answered.

If I lost my job right now, I'd be lucky to find a job paying 3/4 of what I make now. The average IT wage is going down. We spend huge amounts of time outside of the office studying and keeping current. I've actually taken vacation days and went to seminars/classes because there wasn't the money in our budget for the company to send me. And everyone's solution is "oh, go back to school." It's a nice throw away phrase that doesn't help anybody.

Ohhh for God's sake people- let me just make a couple points:
1. Why should you expect the President to tell you what to study? Get off your butt, look around, maybe actually look at areas outside what you already know, outside your comfort zone. Maybe look at becoming a teacher, artist, nurse, etc.

2. All this whining about how I can't get another job at the same salary is pathetic. Why should anyone be guaranteed a certain income, just because they have an MBA, or an MS in IT?

I worked for 8 years for a company that went broke- not bankrupt, broke. I lost all my pension contributions, as well as a good-paying job.

I started my own business, and we lived off my wife's earnings (less than 50% of our combined earinings from before) for nearly 5 years while we got the business profitable. It wasn't easy, but we got it done.

3. Life's uncertain- face up to it. My business (custom organic chemicals) is under severe competition from, guess who- India and China. We have to face the fact the the Indians and Chinese are just as smart as we are, equally able to do things like coding and making chemicals. So, what to do?
Find things you can do more economically or in a more timely fashion, gove your customers better service - as one of the posters above said: ADD VALUE.

To close- my company may not be able to make it in the longer run. If not so be it- I'm not going to be sitting around whining about how unfair life is, I'll find something to do, pick up the pieces and get on with my life, and I CERTAINLY won't be depending on George Bush, John Kerry, or any other politician to do it for me.

As always: YMMV

Mona:

"I studied the hard stuff — neural networks, AI, security"

And that is EXACTLY the business we are in. There's money in it, if you can map the technology to business benefits. Deliver the benefits, you will be smartly rewarded.

"The average IT wage is going down."

The key word there is AVERAGE. If you are average, you are not excellent and you will be rewarded at commodity rates. Our wages are not going down and there's a reason.

There is NOTHING WRONG with going to a community college and to imply that people who do so can qualify only for low paying jobs is a degrading slur. Thanks to that community college, I now pay more federal income tax than most people make in a year.

Posted by: Max Darkside at October 15, 2004 02:29 AM
**************************************************************
LOL sounds like the guy is a drone who wants things handed to him, instead of getting off his rear and taking responsibility for his own life.

I went through a real bad time 10 or 12 years ago had a taxable income one year of $6500 being out of work S^&*&s.

Didn't go to a community college, small jr college accredited trade school, got a 2 year degree in Electronics, I made 80K in 2001 Oh and the COLA where I live is about 30% lower than say Seattlle,. to make it even sweeter.

Dan,

"I went through a real bad time 10 or 12 years ago "

As we did in 1995-97. I was down to my last $1, but with hard work, prayer and a bit of luck, we got 'er turned around. As I say, learning is one step beyond knowing what you are doing and we were doing a lot of learning .

Solonor is also doesn't point out that many of our honored 1st responders get their education from community colleges, including Police, Fire, emergency medics, etc.

I wonder what Solonor's degree is and where he got it, that he looks down on the junior colleges...

As for me, the taxpayers have been paying me to go to school all through grad school and have picked up most of the tab for my undergraduate degree, both under Bush and Clinton, so I can't take Solonor's opinion very seriously.

Gabriel, I have three undergrad degrees from a very small business school in Maine. I got those when the job I had was eliminated when the company merged with a larger one and shipped the job out of state...one where there were incentives for the business to hire workers.

My point was not that community colleges are bad. My point was that Bush's plan to combat the practice of businesses draining billions of dollars from our economy by shipping jobs overseas was to offer U.S. workers lower paying jobs, instead of giving incentives to businesses to stay here (or disincentives for them to leave) is lame.

And, while there are some exceptions, most people who get dumped from a higher paying job and go to community college do not go on to make as much money as they did before. They certainly aren't training for the "jobs of the 21st century" if they already HAD the jobs of the 21st century and lost them.

I'm not saying that it's the government's responsibility to guarantee them a wage. But if you're asked in a national debate, "What would you say to the worker?" or "What's your plan to deal with the job loss?" you ought to have a better answer than "Tell them to go to community college and learn a high tech job."

Solonor Said:
"...get off your ass and go to community college. I hear McDonald’s is hiring."
Then said:
"My point was not that community colleges are bad."

Conficting statements. From the first statement I can CLEARLY infer that community college educations are of little value, yet you try to back out of that position with a double-negative "compliment" to community colleges. You said the wrong thing and you have been called on it.

"And, while there are some exceptions, most people..."
I look forward to your citations for the above "statistics".

"I’m not saying that it’s the government’s responsibility to guarantee them a wage"
Thanks for telling us what you are not saying. There is infinite things you did not say. But, pray-tell, IS the government's CONSTITUTIONALY GRANTED responsibility here?

- Was the government somehow supposed to force your employer to not terminate you because you did not want to move from one state to another? (I've moved 1,000's of miles multiple times between states myself, so no whining).

- Is Bush supposed to "combat the practice of businesses"? Should he COMBAT the practice of "shipping jobs" (how do you SHIP a JOB?)? If your job is falling in value or price due to commoditization, you should, no, you are OBLIGATED to find a way to increase your value. You cannot expect to sit tight, pretending to be protected when all around you the global business and technology environment is dynamically changing. We are a small company (

continued...

- Is Bush supposed to "combat the practice of businesses"? Should he COMBAT the practice of "shipping jobs" (how do you SHIP a JOB?)? If your job is falling in value or price due to commoditization, you should, no, you are OBLIGATED to find a way to increase your value. You cannot expect to sit tight, pretending to be protected when all around you the global business and technology environment is dynamically changing. We are a small company (<10 people) but we are a GLOBAL MULTINATIONAL corporation. Why? Because we're in a global economy with global business. We just hired in another country this week, partly because the work is local there, partly because it was CHEAPER by 4:1. That job would NOT have existed at USA rates, because the customer would not have paid for it.

Since you have multiple presumably business degrees, you know what I'm saying about personal value in a global economy. You must provide value for the dollar better than the next guy, even if they are on the other side of the globe. You also know that Bush is fundamentally right. Go improve yourself.

What I said was that those with the type of degrees that you can get at a community college earn (on average) less than those with a higher degree. Finding statistics to back that up takes all of ten seconds.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm

It is the government's constitutionally mandated responsibility to promote the general welfare... as in taking care of US citizens... as in trying to make sure we have a safe, equitable chance at making a decent living.

The point is that the Bush Administration doesn't even TRY to use its powers to encourage businesses to stay in the U.S. and help the American worker. In fact, their policies do the opposite, giving incentives for businesses to hire overseas. And the only thing we get out of them (and the businesses who only see the bottom line that their labor cost and tax burdens will be lower) is that American workers are lazy and overpaid, that they should just get a different education and look for a decent job. Guess what? They already had one! And shifting the blame to the workers to say it's their own damned fault is about the poorest excuse I've ever heard.

It's not anybody's "fault" Solonor. What you misapprehend is the actual capacity of the government to control the issues about which you're complaining. Europe has tried all of the protectionist policies you'd likely have Bush implement, and look where it's gotten them: TWICE the unemployment and 55% of US median household income.

If we really want to do something to help keep business in the US we could do away with all business taxes, which are in fact of reality merely a hidden tax on consumers. At some point global competition is going to force the hand of a major industrial nation to do exacly this, which will force the rest to do the same sooner rather than later.

Since it's going to happen eventually anyway, I say it might as well be us that starts it.

:jackson

Good grief...*sigh*...where to start. I am also in the Tech field. Network Admin/Security Admin. I have GASP only an associate's degree from a local community college. Solonor, I take your comments as a direct insult. The IT field has nothing to do with "Higher Education"...it has EVERYTHING to do with experience and DEMONSTRATED certifications(Microsoft paper holders with no experience need not apply). I didn't learn what I know from college...I learned it right here at this keyboard. No instructor....no classroom. Granted, I have a few certifications(MCP, GSEC, and soon the GCIH) but of those I only attended the "class" for the GSEC. I got my experience by first working on other people's computers, then starting my own company, THEN applying for other jobs on the MERIT I EARNED from my company. THAT, folks, is called working the American CAPITALIST system. I owe no one anything for where I am or how I got here. I worked it all myself. I have had to clean up the messes of more BS, MS, and PHD holders in CompSci than I can count. Right now I REGULARLY correct and clean up after a friggin Canadian Frog who regularly tosses his beloved BS in CompSci at anyone ignorant enough to listen. Higher Education in the IT field is joke. There are more 19 year old High School dropouts out there that know their IT stuff than there are "college grad-idiots". I can show you in my web logs where they try to, and on occasions succeed, hack my machines.

And before anyone says, "Oh well you come from a rich family" that's bullcrap. My father ran his own trucking company for YEARS while I grew up...a trucking company of one truck and he was the driver, mechanic, dispatcher, and bookkeeper. I remember many many winters eating from our family garden and the odd deer or two he would kill the previous winter. YES, it's possible to live for and by yourself in this America...a fact the American Leftist seems to either neglect or flat out refuse to accept.

Now...about outsourcing. It is the SCOURGE of the IT field and probably others as well. We outsource our techsupport folks to india and the average american using our service can't understand them.(Hear that Earthlink?). We outsource our enterprise systems to foriegn countries and try to explain it away because they were the lowest bidder on the RFP. As someone above said we are outsourcing our experience so American entry level folks have no hope of gaining experience through employment, and thanks to the crap we are teaching in our "glorious" universities, these same folks believe they MUST have a job to make it. What to do about it? Dunno. This is also part of our Capitalist system and the folks that are doing it are looking out for their company's bottom line and no one can begrudge them that. I'm not sure I like the idea of doing away with business/industy taxes...have to think on it some more. Alot of business/industry taxes go to the upkeep of our highways and such...a cost I will gladly pay when I order from Amazon or buy on Ebay. There's gotta be a solution or those of us that are "dialectic deciphering" disabled will continue to have a hell of a time with our Hindi speaking brethren.

I'm disgusted about many things tonight...some political and most not. Solonor's Editorial just pushed me over the edge. It STUNS me how one stupid quip from the President gets the Leftists all worked up while the Veep candidate of the Democrats can essentially claim that Senator Kerry is the Messiah and they all just nod in approval. No...Solonor...I'm not saying you approved of Senator Edwards' comment about stem cell research. I am saying that the Leftists are playing a VERY shady rhetorical game here and you just made it alittle more shady.

Wayne: fully agree with you.

Solonor: "general welfare" Those are the two most abused words in the US Constitution. In the preamble, the Constitution is established to "provide for the common defence, PROMOTE the general Welfare" and in Section 8, Clause 1 it refers to providing for the general welfare of the UNITED STATES and it clearly states the "general" welfare (that means to me in the big picture, not for every individual). Some how the socialists have decided that means taking from "the rich" and giving to "the poor" and granting unreasonable protections against ever losing our jobs for what ever reasons, or not having our feelings hurt.

Buck Up Cowboy, HERE IN THE USA WE ALL HAVE AN "equitable chance at making a decent living".

Thanks for the salary vs. education statistics. IT EXACTLY BACKS UP WHAT BUSH SAID. Read the top of the flippin' page, EDUCATION PAYS. Bush said exactly that and suggested a reasonable start for many families that are not already in or completed degrees at Universities.

"help the American worker". Why do I feel like I'm in the Soviet Union? Why can't the American Worker help him/herself?

"American workers are lazy and overpaid" That is true if 1) the worker expects someone to fix their "problems" for them (lazy) and 2) if the value of the American Worker comes at a higher price than elsewhere in the market.

"they should just get a different education" It's not not just a "different" education, but a process and path by which they can provide MORE VALUE for the dollar. All workers are in a global competitive market and must strive to maximize their value for the dollar they desire.

"They already had one!" Key word was HAD. Past tense. The world changes and SO MUST YOU. Even our economy is predicated on GROWTH, that is, things must change!

"And shifting the blame to the workers to say it’s their own damned fault is about the poorest excuse I’ve ever heard"

Sitting there not improving yourself and expecting your job to always be there is about the most foolish thing I've ever heard.

Wayne:

"I got my experience by first working on other people’s computers, then starting my own company, THEN applying for other jobs on the MERIT I EARNED from my company. THAT, folks, is called working the American CAPITALIST system. I owe no one anything for where I am or how I got here. I worked it all myself. "

Bravo. That is a fine example. Our company was founded and is based on technologies that I created myself, standing on the shoulders of others that came before me, in our basement bedroom. It delivers 10's of millions of dollars per year of VALUE to just ONE customer of ours, and we have 1,000's of customers.

Our technology CANNOT be commoditized in the near term, but I cannot expect that to be true forever, so I must CONTINUALLY INVENT AND IMPROVE or I will financially die.

However, somehow I get the impression here that I should just do my job, rest assured that me, the American Worker, is somehow being cared for by the Big Brother USA and if I lose my job, it's Bush's policies' fault, not mine. Capital B, Capital S.

Max:

If these people would spend half as much time trying to improve THEMSELVES rather than waiting on Uncle Sam to improve FOR themselves this world would be a much better place.

I honestly do not know where this idea of entitlement came from. Johnson's Great Society? FDR's WPA? I dunno but it's gonna be the end of what I, my father, his father and all the way back to old Bartholomew Fielder who fought the Brits for our Independence have come to love and that is the strong independent nature of that odd creature the rest of the world has come to know, respect, and at times fear... The American.

"FEAR?!?! Why should the rest of the world FEAR us?" Because we have been the biggest and baddest d@mned dog around ever since we kicked the Spanish's butts. And at the same time the most giving nation this world has ever known. What made us both the strongest and the most philanthropic? The fact that we know where true wealth comes from...where all things good come from...that is from a humble Spirit before our God, a manaically strong work ethic, and an inventive streak that makes the Rennaisance look like an elementary school science fair.

The American Leftist seems to be second only to the French in wanting something for nothing and then being pissed because they didn't get more. Get over yerselves folks...you are NOT that important.

Geesh...and I thought 30 minutes on the heavy bag would calm me down...time to tape up, find another picture of Senator Kerry, and go back to the heavy bag. ;)

What is it with people? The President is not the "magical maker of jobs." That is not his job. His job is to create an enviroment where our entrepeneurs can thrive. Where our businesses can expand and hire more people. Do you actually thank that John Kerry can wave h is magic fairy wand and "presto" jobs rain from the sky. I am sick of the whining. I am a grandmother (60 years old). I have worked all of my life. I never had the opportunity to get a college degree. Yet, three years ago I opened a new business with a small loan from my son. I now how 8 other women who make a good living at my business.I have never asked for one red cent in unemployment benefits nor have I ever asked for or received a government hand out. I abhor the national "pitty party" that the democrats engage our society in. For crying out loud. Get up off of your collective puny a****s and do something for yourselves for a change. America truly is the land of opportunity if you will quit snivelikng long enough to look out the front door. We are not a nation of knock-kneed crybabies. All of the "out of work" sophisticates need to be slapped up the side of the head and told to quit whining and get to work. I don't care if you have 5 college degrees. It obviously did not teach you self-reliance and personal responsibility if you are still thrashing around having a temper tantrum because of out sourcing. Bunk. We live in a world economy. Shut up and do something for yourselves and quit asking the government to molly coddle you.

Nomorelies: Very good.

I think I understand the basis of the left's and Solonor's issues. They think that each individual has been produced by the great genetics machine, stamped into a rigid form and placed, no, stuck into a socio-economic caste, from where you may never, with rare exception, break free.

Thus, the worker will always a worker and is powerless to be anything but a worker. The "gay" person who was born that way and are just "being who they are". The impoverished are powerless to be anything but poor. Pressing those with "learning disabilities" in our schools to perform destroys their individuality and hurts their feelings.

Since leftists think workers will always be workers, they feel compelled to create labor unions that "fight for" workers, rather bringing workers upwards into management. Since they think gay people will (must?) always be gay, they are for "gay rights" when in fact there are none (personal rights, yes. "gay rights", no). Since they think the poor must always be poor, Lefties seek hand-outs (welfare), rather than lift them up to higher socio-economic status. They think the ignorant will always be sub-performers, so they push back on school testing because it measures their sub-performance.

The lefties instill these beliefs on as many peoples as possble to gain power over the " oppressed", then leverage those votes into power for themselves. Do you honestly think that John Kerry cares a HOOT about the poor? The worker? The ignorant? How about Teresa "Let them run naked" Heinz? How much volunteering have they done?

They care only about creating the "OPPRESSED" and reaping the POWER from it. THEY are the harvesters of the down-trodden.

To follow on... We all should help each other understand our life choices and allow each of us to decide what is best for us in our individual pursuit of life and liberty then help each other achieve our personal goals. If we choose to be poor, that is FINE! But recognize it is a choice and there are means and processes to change that. That is FREEDOM. That is POWER. Uplift our fellow man. Education, whether self-taught, or through formalized schooling, is a powerful means to a better future.

Solonor,

" In fact, their policies do the opposite, giving incentives for businesses to hire overseas"

This statement shows your lack of knowledge on the issue of business.

We actually have 4 times as many jobs created in the U.S. as are being sent overseas according to the U.S. government and the Federal Reserve stastics they keep. (They are easily available. Do you want the truth or not)?

Kerry knows that but he has NEVER let the TRUTH stop him from telling Lies. He did it Saturday on the upcoming (but TOTALLY fictious)Draft and today on stealing Social Security benefits from Senors starting in January.

As for whining about a job loss, DO SOMETHING. I have NO SYMPATHY for anyone who refuses to take personal responsibilty for their future.

I have NOT HAD a paying job since 1990. I will NEVER work for anyone again. Yes, I am a business person. I also have a successful online busy that is duplicatable. We are expanding. If you want information that can free you from the job hassle forever, contact me!

Charles

a typo.... business, not "busy"

The world has changed. You no longer spend a couple of years "learning" in college and then go to work forever at your trade. That was the 20th century, and even towards the end you could see that model failing, as apprentiships failed at the end of the 19th.

Education (for those high-paying jobs) is now continuing, if not continuous, and if you're not learning, you're on the path to being "right sized". The good thing is that it's not always necessary to collect the degrees and the certificates; lots of places are happy with the initial degree and the certificates that show you're still learning, rather than leaning on your prior paperwork.

Bush is right (as were Jesse Ventura and Arnold when they made simular comments.)

You guys are missing my point. It's not "boo-hoo, I've got to work my butt off until I die," it's that we're being told "oh, go back to community college and get a tech degree." Okay, but wouldn't it be nice if there were tech jobs to go with that degree? Most of us out there in the field are telling you it's hard, it's rough, it's dog-eat-dog, it's who's got the chair when then music stops. Now, who's going to get a job? Someone with a 2 year degree from Moose Snot community college and no experience or someone with a Master's from Ga. Tech, Duke, Arizona, etc., with 10 year's experience? I know who I've hired, and it wasn't the community college applicant. And a bit of statistics....

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The U.S. technology sector suffered another round of widespread layoffs during the third quarter, with computer firms slashing jobs most aggressively, a report said on Monday.

"High-tech job cuts are on the way up as the end of the year approaches," said John A. Challenger, chief executive officer of Challenger, Gray & Christmas. "Behind this trend is the fact that technology companies have virtually no pricing power,"

Job cuts in technology jumped 60 percent between July and September to 54,701, compared with 34,213 layoffs in the second quarter. Computer companies alone saw job cuts jump 127 percent, to 30,624.

Manufacturers in the sector are having trouble making money since they have been forced to lower prices in order to attract consumers, Challenger said. So they end up firing workers in order to maintain healthy profit margins.

Worse yet, the growing number of layoffs is not being countered by any move to hire, Challenger added.

Mona,

I think you are missing my point as well. I went to a community college and didn't stop there and have done well, though it's a continual struggle.

I think you are missing other's points: That actually a formalized education is not necessary to be successful.

I think you are missing the President's point: Educate yourself to advance and a community college is a great place to start if you haven't already.

There is also help of all sorts along the way towards a PhD, if you so desire.

"Someone with a 2 year degree from Moose Snot community college and no experience or someone with a Master’s from Ga. Tech, Duke, Arizona, etc., with 10 year’s experience?"

Calling a community college "Moose Snot" is not helpful and in the case you cite above, the person with the limited experience may be a better choice. In our ultra-high-tech company, people without degrees out number ones that do by 2:1. Why? Because the provide the best VALUE for the position. By the way we have NO LABOR JOBS. These non-degreed people work in accounting, technical support, etc.

Have a nice day.

Thanks for signing in, . Now you can comment. (Click here should you choose to sign out.)

As you post your comment, please mind our simple comment policy: we welcome all perspectives, but require that comments be both civil and respectful. We also ask that you avoid the extensive use of profanity, racist terms (neither of which we consider civil or respectful), and other boorish language.

We reserve the right to delete any comment, and to prohibit you from commenting on this site, if we feel you have broached this policy. As a courtesy, we will first send you an email noting a violation so you understand the boundaries. This will occur only once, however, and should we ban you from our comment forums we expect that ban to be permanent.

We also will frown upon those who suggest that we ban other individuals for voicing unpopular opinions, should those opinions be voiced in a civil and respectful manner. The point of our comment threads is to provide a forum for spirited though civil and respectful discourse … it is not to provide a forum in which everyone will agree with your point of view.

If you can live by these rules, welcome aboard. If not, then we’re sorry it didn’t work out, and thanks for visiting The Command Post.

URL:
Remember me? YesNo

Comments: