Actually, I believe Condi's sentiments were "Punish France, ignore Germany, and reward Russia."

..exactly...but...W has got to make it clear this behind the back stabbing must stop ..We must be forthright with one another so this wont be another paper alliance.But together;we could convince Peking and the rest of the world to stop this madness sooner rather than later....

All of the above is correct, but time is up for many of the "clear message" actions that Russia can take.

Going into Iraq, for example is out. The fact is we dont really want the Russians and Chinese fighting along side us anyway. It is far more important to put an end to these France/Germany/Russia summits!

W needs to put the attack in the same frame as 9/11. We value the innocence of children highly, and it would be good diplomacy to suggest that the Russians do too.

W needs to point out that in the WOT the US has been fighting Chechens in Afghanistan and Pakistan has fought them on their borders.

Most importantly W needs to make it clear to Putin in private that there will be no US critisism of actions he may take in Chechnya.

The feeling that the US would condemn Russia before the French and even the UN, is at the root of the strain in US Russia relations.

Even though it is ilogical, considering how far we have gone in Iraq - with the French whispering in his ear every few months, it is human nature for Putin to resent the US for antisipated critisism. You can see that in his comment about Bin-Laden.

Simply saying nothing is not good enough. We could sit silent as things happen, and hope the message gets through, but in the meantime the resentment and antisipation will remain and grow.

Putins confidence with a personal assurance from W would change his attitude toward the US and sink the French in a 10 minute phone call.

Russia could go too far, of course. They are kinda sloppy - on the other hand we have not been perfect. Admitting this is something the French could never do, and would finally win over the Russian leader.

...personally I would like to see him and Larua go and pay there respects,and show the Russians that they aren`t is this alone...damn what people think its the right thing to do ...

...but this bothers me..
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/09/08/002.html

Rob - Simply put, Putin has thrown down the gauntlet. Who's side are we (the US) on? Are we still assisting the jihadists against the USSR in Afghanistan (1980's), or are we ready to drop support for Islamofascists and at least side with a people we more closely resemble (looks, religion, civilzation, you know)?

If the west does not hang together on this one, as Ben Franklin would have said, we will all hang separately. The US and Britian need to turn over their Chechan 'bastards' and let Russia do what it wants with them. In exchange, Russia will give us any al Qaeda 'bastards' they might have for questioning.

Let's stop playing these stupid power games and get down to the business of defending the west. Europe's not going to help, that's for sure, so why not Russia? I don't remember FDR having any trouble doing the fox trot with Uncle Joe, whose reputation was much worse than Putin's will ever be.

Whatever their original intent, Chechnya has been compromised - and the base must be eliminated. We're back to the Siege of Vienna and the Battle of Lepanto - someone wake up the State Department.

I would LOVE to see a big hug between Putin and Dubya. We can be honest with Putin AFTER we make it clear that they can join us in the WOT in any way they choose...as long as it doesn't turn into another land grab.

Putin != Stalin...got it Mr. Putin? Good. Now...let's go create some martyrs.

Wow...Just read the piece Rob linked to.

"We will strengthen law enforcement by staffing the police with Chechens, and gradually withdraw our troops to barracks, and leave as small a contingent as we feel necessary, just like the U.S. does in California and Texas," he[Putin] said.


Uh...like ouch or something! uh...Mr. Putin, I don't know you so I'm guessing you're being sarcastic? Our "strengthening" of our border along that region has dramatically improved the security there...from a torrent of illegals down to just a flood.

"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money."

uh...*OUCH AGAIN*...this guy has a better grasp of our political system than at least a couple of our Senators!

I think I like this guy....not sure I trust him as far as I can throw him...but I like him.

There is also a closer historical analog than the 1980s that Russia is concerned with, namely the Balkans. They saw us back-stab the Serbs. I can understand Vladimir's concerns.

We had to deal with the realpolitick of previous administrations to gain the trust of the minorities within Iraq. We showed we can truly the right thing there. We need to show that we value human life regardless of nationality. We will not tolerate the slaughter of innocents and we will help all who need us.

W, make a deal and be true to your word. I say we ignore both Germany and France. If they come on board, great. But, if not they are not worth the energy when there are more pressing diplomatic issues.

.-^-.
Oui Free French agree.
-

.--;--^--;--.

" Bastards "
.,.,|,

” Bastards “
.,.,|,

Posted by: augurwell at September 8, 2004 01:17 AM
************************************************************
I have often wondered why when someone wants to be insulting they merely make slurs on the other person's Mother?

How about calling us Pricks or something that refers just to us? ;-)

Perez-Miller: Actually, I believe Condi’s sentiments were “Punish France, ignore Germany, and reward Russia.”

That certainly makes more sense, but still-- where/when/how did Rice express this extremely non-PC sentiment? I've googled, but can't find it..?

No, I'm quite sure that the idea was to punish Germany, and to ignore for now France. It makes sense too, since punishing France would not result in anything, being dug in like they were. Germany was (and is) far more susceptible to being treated 'bad' by the US, as Rummy showed on occasions.

I think the most important thing Russia could add to this war is pressure on the Axis of Evil countries Iran (nuclear reactors) and North Korea (through its relations with China). You really don't want Russians back into Afghanistan, nor would Putin want to go there. Same goes for the other Caucasus republics, Russian troops operating on Georgian soil (the famous Pankisi Gorge where Al Qaeda has hideouts) would have a very adverse effect, insomuch as that Georgia would never accept this. But if Russia can (and they can) halt Iran's nuclear ambitions, then that's a huge victory in our war.

Wow! This is what I call a Right Wing discourse. At the beginning it seemed to me a joke, but when I rode “V-Man” at the end of this perorate, I understood.

“In the words of Condoleezza Rice: Ignore France (for now), Punish Germany and Reward Russia” ---- Lets go to make solid alliances. Mrs. Rice is as inept in the policy work as Mr. Bush is. How can somebody be so square-minded, being black? The paths of God are inscrutable.

So, now Russia is the new partner in the Assault of the World, and USA is going to support the Russian war on Chechenia. Sharon also offered useful help to Russia. Of course, Russia is not going to accept any intromission, as Putin stated. At least the nuclear nukes are not necessarily implied (for now).

Finally we are going to see the Putin-Bush-Sharon trio doing what they want, oh, I mean working together against the Terror… my worst nightmare.

Definitely, I will make a trench in my garden and I will shot against everything moving around. I bet the postman will be the first “collateral casualty”. We go straight forward to the World War 3, and the work was done by a couple of mohammeds with “Allah” tattooed in the forehead. I must admit it: the Terrorists won.

Vino - Aside from the appalling racist statement at the beginning of your post - what's your point? You think the USA is running the "Assault of the World"? You mean like the time we blew up your train, or the time we flew our own planes into our own buildings? How about the time we bayoneted children or the time we blew up that club in Bali? Yeah, that was us, alright. You Spaniards are so intuitive - can't understand why you aren't World Leaders.

When your garden becomes the next killing field for the Caliphate, cry out for us, ask for our help - we're probably stupid enough to respond.

In the meantime, remain the Europe That Does Not Matter, without a military, the religious conviction of your heritage, or the will to intervene on the part of your neighbor. Continue to vote from under your bed.

And do not ask for whom the bell tolls....

Vino: Not yet, they haven't. Not until (by their own definition) you are either a Muslim in a sea of Muslims, or you are six feet under.

Besides, if they have won, why are they still fighting?

I certainly don't believe that Germany should be 'punished'. They've done nothing wrong, or at least, nothing morally wrong. Foolishness is another matter.

Germany has been in honest opposition to the war in Iraq. By their lights, they don't see the game as being worth the candle. They think the damage done to the credibility of international institutions (ie the UN), and the world order generally, as outweighing the good of stopping a dictator in his tracks.

I won't go in to why I think this is hopelessly incorrect, wrong and dangerous, but I will readily concede the German government's opinion (mirrored by the vast majority of the electorate) is honestly, if mistakenly held. Germany is an ally with whom we have honest differences, and we should respect their right to behave like horse's.... to differ from our own opinions. Remember, over 30% of Americans, Brits and Australians hold the same opinion.

France is another matter. With recently inventoried captured documents we now have incontrovertible proof, not merely strong evidence, of French involvement in keeping Saddam going. Whether it was the whole of the French Government, or just rogue elements within it that were responsible is not known. Yet. However there is repeated a historical pattern of this type of thing. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose by administering a stinging chastisement for their corruption and treachery.

As for Russia, we missed out on a glorious opportunity to let bygones be bygones after 1991. Bush Sr elected to play it safe, and I can't say that that wasn't the wisest course at the time. But in hindsight, we should have done more to help Democratise Russia. Too bad Bush didn't get a second term (though whether he would have done any better is highly unlikely), and Clinton showed no interest in getting his hands dirty with Russia's intractable problems. By his second term, the opportunity had passed, and besides which, he was busy with... other things.

We now have another opportunity. We run the risk of being contaminated by the Russian Bloodthirsty "Incompetent Bull-In-A-Chinashop" strategy they've employed so ineffectively in the past. It would do us a lot of harm if our 'Allies' slaughtered innocents by the tens of thousands. But we also have an opportunity to steer them in another direction; to do for the Russians what we're doing for the Iraqi National Guard. Train them, and at least as importantly, provide them with not weaponry (that they have), but decent food, reliable vehicles, boots that fit, and a restoration of Pride that only comes with Victory, and not SNAFUs.

Rice had it almost right : If you want a soundbite,

Respect Germany Punish France (or at least, the French Nomenklatura)
Reward Russia

Torpedo,

Which appalling racist statement are you talking about? Is not black Mrs. Rice? The word “black” does not sounds good to you? Or maybe a black person cannot be as inept as a white one?

“can’t understand why you aren’t World Leaders.” -- The explanation is very easy. We don’t want to be World leaders. Spaniards are Spain leaders. We had our moments in the History. Now is time for USA…bon apetit.

“When your garden becomes the next killing field for the Caliphate” --- Always the same thing… If you have decided to wait for Spain becoming a field for the Caliphate, I suggest you to buy a comfortable arm chair and to wait sited. It could take some time before we put burkas on our women and we forbid the beer. I know that the war against Morocco is a matter of time (years, decades…), and I don’t know which side will choose USA (actually). The only thing that I know is that Spain will win, once again.

“And do not ask for whom the bell tolls….” --- I fear this time the bell doesn’t toll for me, but for the whole World.

Gus3,

If you have not noticed it, the final Terrorist goal is to provoke a global combat, which is feed with the pain of the innocents, the poorness and the demagogy. They are very close to their goal. Each day the Terrorist groups have a better organization and a larger number of militants. Now you can add the Putin-Bush-Sharon trio, which will divide more the western countries and will make the terrorist groups uniting their causes, once again.

aebrain,

What about:

Dialogue, dialogue and dialogue with Germany and France. (Is not USA a leader? So, why USA acts like a bully instead of a leader?)
Making a common front against Terrorism PRIORITARY. (the most important task in the last 60 years).
Reward Russia.

I really would like to see this three issues in Rice’s agenda instead of suggesting a punishment on a democratic an independent country. The punishment just will make France or Germany more reticent to any kind of implication in this war. The punishment on a democratic country, never worked and never will work.

“And do not ask for whom the bell tolls….” —- I fear this time the bell doesn’t toll for me, but for the whole World." - Vino Tinto

Precisely, so isn't it time Spain got off its butt and started fighting for the 'whole World'? Because without the US, Europe is low-hanging fruit, waiting to be plucked. Look around you and see what's happening to the European population - you're being bred out of existence. From Britanistan to Germanistan to Italiastan to Denmarkistan. No, they won't do anything to you while they're building up the majority in each country necessary to 'democratically' vote for Islamic law, but by the time that moment arrives, Vino, your window will have closed.

It's not enough to be leaders of Spain, you have to poke your head out and look at what's happening all over the world. The cradle of Western Civilization won't even fight for western civilization!

I'm tired of the ridiculous logic you imply. We'd never have gone into foreign countries if we weren't attacked and we sure as hell didn't ATTACK OURSELVES. In this sense, European socialism allows its adherents to sit idly back and believe that attacking the 'west' (the US, of course, certainly not Muslim-friendly Europe) is perfectly okay - that the US had it coming to them.

Tell yourself its not your fight. Tell yourself no one's ever going to make you give up your beer. Do what you have to to paralyze yourself into inaction. "And Spain will win, once again."

Check your history books - it's been a while.

I'm guessing Vino is in his 20's and in about another 30 years he'll wake up and realize he let his bravado overrule his brain.

TexasGal

Vino will NOT LIVE that long. He will have to decide to be a Muslim or DIE in the next 5 to 10 years.

He just is NOT Historically knowledgeable enough to see what reality is facing Spain and all of Euope NOW.

First round, Torpedo

“they’re building up the majority in each country necessary to ‘democratically’ vote for Islamic law” ---- This statement shows the paranoia in which you live.

“to poke your head out and look at what’s happening all over the world.”---- I liked very much Saddam ruling Iraq. If the Iraqis are masochists, this is not my business. It doesn’t matter to me what happens in the world. If some tortured people ask for Spanish help, I will be the first one supporting this help. If they don’t want our help, good luck and good bye. This is something that USA has to learn. You cannot force to the people to be helped. I will repeat, because I think you don’t understand this concept YOU CAN NOT FORCE THE PEOPLE TO BE HELPED. If some country tries to invade my country, I will be the first one to show the most absolute cruelness and brutality. If they don’t try to invade my country, they are my brothers, and I don’t care if they pray 5 times per day looking to the Mecca.

“We’d never have gone into foreign countries if we weren’t attacked” ---- WHAT???? WHAT???? I guess you are kidding. In 1898, Spain was in her darkness times, and USA used the accident of the Maine (some yokel smoking near the ammunition room) to massacre hundreds of soldiers abandoned by the corrupt Spanish government in Cuba and the Phillipines without compassion. This was the first episode. Since 1898, many countries could put you their own example, Iran, Lybia, Panama, Chile, etc, etc, etc…

“Tell yourself its not your fight”---- No, this is not my fight, I will not stain my hands of innocent blood.

“Check your history books - it’s been a while.” --- I am sure that I have a deepest knowledge about Spanish History than you have.


Second round, TexasGal

For you, baby, I just say that what you deserves is to be launched by parachute in the middle of a real combat. Humans vs. Humans, ie, beasts vs. beasts. You will learn a couple of things about the war. You will see that the John Wayne’s movies and the Chuck Norris’ movies lie.


Third round, leaddog2

“Vino will NOT LIVE that long” --- Maybe, but what I know is that my last though will be to damn your ideas.


“He just is NOT Historically knowledgeable enough to see what reality is facing Spain and all of Euope NOW”---- Yes, now you are going to give me lessons about what is the real problem with the Islamic world. You know that Allah does exist since the 9/11. We have faced Allah since 1500 years ago. Don’t make me laugh…

"I liked very much Saddam ruling Iraq. If the Iraqis are masochists, this is not my business. It doesn’t matter to me what happens in the world. - No, this is not my fight, I will not stain my hands of innocent blood."
VinoTinto

Well, I guess this says it all. We're watering a dead plant here, folks. Let's let the brave isolationist get back to his beer.

Sorry we wrecked your Empire. Obviously what Americans did 106 years ago is the kind of important rationalization that deserves time and room. I will give you both.

How the mighty have fallen. You are a sad little monkey.

Yes, I liked very much Saddam there. The world was a safer place when Saddam owned the Iraqi throne. Incidentally, USA though the same thing during the last 25 years, and gave him a lot of money and support. I really don’t understand why you have changed your opinion about Saddam so suddenly.

“Sorry we wrecked your Empire” ---- You brought up the topic, not me, saying that USA had never been the aggressor. I just gave to you the first example which came to my mind, my own country.
The Panama brutal, illegal and unjustified invasion which took the life of hundreds of innocents happened in 1989, if I am not wrong. Did Noriega (another Puppet dictator for the American agenda) try to invade USA? Did Panama attack USA? Why USA attacked and invaded Panama during the night? Why USA attacked Libya in 1986? I mean, I have not noticed any Libyan wetback throwing stones against some American destroyer… Oh yes!! The Lockerville attack…. But…this attack happened in 1988, 2 years after USA attacked Libya. Why USA usurped the Chile government chosen in a democratic election in 1973? 25000 civilians lost their lives in the following repression by Pinochet (the Kissinger’s best friend). Yes, maybe in the last 10 years USA has not attacked without reason to any country (saving Iraq). Maybe you are talking about the last 10 years, ok. The most important question: Why is USA absolutely unable to learn from its own mistakes?

“You are a sad little monkey” --- I will save my personal opinion about you.

Second round, TexasGal
For you, baby, I just say

I see I was right about you Vino. In about 20-30 years from now, if your survive, you will look back on these days at CP and wish you had listened to the wiser voices here that tried to get you to see the light about the threat of Islamofascists whose only desire was to take your country from you.

Vino liked Saddam ruling Iraq. The Iraqis deserved and benefitted from that, I guess he thinks. Franco was a lot more benign than Saddam, but 'firm', and I expect Vino misses him too.

I see TexasGal. But what I hope is being wrong about you. Probably we was able to defend our country during 1500 years, but we wont be able to defend Spain during 1530 years. I hope to be wrong about you, and I hope that you will be able some day to look beyond the American borders and to see the reality around the third world (80% world population). Otherwise, many innocent American blood left to flow yet.

TomTom, have you ever questioned yourself about the fact that in 1945 the Fascism was erased from the whole Europe, saving Spain? Why the allied countries left here a Fascist dictator like Franco? The explanation is very easy. Spain had not power to invade any country. We had had enough with our Civil War (1936-1939). Furthermore, the Spaniards really don’t like to see their country invaded, and in case the allies decided invade Spain too, every single Spaniard would take a gun to kill invaders. It didn’t matter if here was a dictatorial Fascist regime. It was our business. Read the Winston Churchill memories. Read why Hitler didn’t try invade Spain, a wonderful strategic position for the African war. And here is not any Spaniard resentful because of this. THIS WAS OUR BUSINESS.
Now try to apply the same reasoning process to Saddam and Iraq, and you will be a little bit closer to understand my point.

And we are going out of topic. The statement which suggest a punishment on two of the very few countries around the world in which you can trust, in which you can say that you are American, and nobody is going to kill you because of this. Oh, yes, there are the reports about France giving support to Iraq in an illegal way during the embargo. How many times have USA done the same thing along the History? Who is going to punish USA? Because this could be another good topic. I see USA can punish every country around the World. The USA can punish France, or Germany, or Iraq, Cuba or Spain. But, Who punish USA? Why I could be processed by the International Tribunal as a war criminal, but you don’t? I mean, from where does this supposed moral superiority comes from, to decide who must be punished and who mustn’t? From God? It sounds like the Islamofascist reasoning. Or maybe this moral supremacy does not exist, but what actually does exist is an economic and military supremacy? I think this one is the real reason. And It explains why USA is loosing allies as fast as the hell. The USA invade and punish like the Old Testament God, because USA CAN do it. Stop this kindergarten reasoning “We are the good ones, they are the bad ones”, because at the end, you will find that USA is the only one good one in the world, and all the others are the bad ones.

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