Whoa... I wonder how long this editorial has been building up, gawing away at Michele's subconcious for a chance at freedom.

I have always wondered though why the left tends to produce many more radical protesters than the right does. Sure both sides have extremists and nut-jobs, but for some reason the leftie extremists like to get out and start some public mayhem.

In a way it makes me think that maybe the secret wish of most militant leftie extremists is to have a little anarchy.

so true michele
/btw should the michele-won't-blog-about-politics count-down clock be stoped now, or is this post a gimme:-)
/j/k
mike lawson

Excellent piece Michele! I knew you could stay in that Gawd Awful world of modern pop culture long! Welcome back to my Angst riddled world! ;)

There are hopelessly naive people at all portions of the political spectrum. Ideology and reality sometimes make strange bedfellows.

That being said, I love anti-war protesters. Not those who pick and choose specific wars to be against, but those who think disarmament will lead to world peace and we just have to set the right example. There's something so wonderful about people who, as a classmate of mine once did, claim that war is the result of a "fundamental failure of imagination". I never felt smarter than I did after hearing that dumb remark.

It's not their naivete that makes them so remarkable, it's that they are so willing to display it.

Michele,
raises and deals with some interesting issues.
What we have seen on the Streets is the enbodiment of those freedoms that our forefathers fought and died for. The freedom of these people to protest must represent so many of the freedoms and values that we struggle to share with Iraq , Afghanistan and other Countries bleeding under oppression.

My concerns are more Darwinian in nature. I must ask "How long can a Society exist , that tolerates and encourages those who seek to overthrow it?
Those who do little or nothing to contribute to the Commonwealth, but who will seek to undermine those very Institutions that gurantee their freedoms".

I fera that I may be misquoting the late Robert Heinlen " There is only one capital offence , against which there is no appeal against sentence......Stupidity"

I think

Lackey said,

I have always wondered though why the left tends to produce many more radical protesters than the right does.

Are you kidding?
Anti-abortionists (radical right-wingers) have...
bombed doctor's offices,
assaulted patients, and
murdered doctors for their cause.

ok, ep

I recently have begun to understand something about the American Left that's obscured by their rhetoric and cant, which is so very "internationalist" in a save-the-planet sort of way.

But, when you get down to it, they're extremely parochial and self-centered. Everything is about America to them. It's most obvious in the view that America is the root of all evil in the world, and that if we just started being nice to people and building Socialism in One Country, the rest of the world would instantly go back to its natural state of peace and harmony.

It's nutty, yeah, but the key, I think, is that the left doesn't really care much about people in other countries - they see them more as props for their parochial domestic politics. It's why, for instance, questions like "Aren't the Iraqi people better off now than under Saddam?" don't provoke much real debate, but tend to be just ignored - "does not compute."

It's a two-way street:
1. All evil in the world is caused by Evil Americans, but also
2. "The world" mainly exists to provide material for the fight between Evil Americans and Good Americans.

It's almost a post-modern view, like the third world is just a "construct," that exists to provide handmade arts and craft for leftist walls, and to provide fodder for domestic political arguments.

A lot of the left's politics only makes sense if there aren't any "real" human beings living outside the West.

Max, you got the gist of it, but here's the full Heinlein quote:

"Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity isn't a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only
universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity."

Once again, ep, you answer an unasked question, and don't answer the question put forward.

The question was not, "does the right wing have a criminal radical element?".

The question addressed the specific issue of why the left has so many more of them.

Gus,
You've missed my point.
I would say the pre-meditated murdering of another human being is about the most radical/extreme position an activist can take to further their agenda.

To your point: Do you have data suggesting there are more "criminal radicals" on the left than the right? If so, please post it. If I had to guess, I'd say the left has more (in raw numbers), but as a percentage they'd be equal or perhaps the right might have a slightly higher figure.

But of course not all crimes are equal. Shall we compare murder data? Between 1993 and 1998: 7 abortion doctors were murdered and there were 17 attempted murders (according to Newsweek). I'm curious how many murders the "criminal radical" leftists commited during the same time frame. Please post your data.

ok, ep

Gimme a fucking break. Apparently Mumia Abu-Jamal, the Black Panthers, and the Symbionese Liberation Army have all been forgotten by the left. And of course the ultimate left wing socialist criminals like Stalin don't even count, right? You can judge the left wingers by the company they keep and those they support. Arafat, Communism, Islamic fundamnetalism. Not only that, they would like us to believe that the thousands of people marching with signs that say "Support Resistance in Iraq" and "I love NY better without the WTC, and "Death to America" and those that want to support Palestinan "liberation" through the destruction of all of Israel are all simply harmless.

So yes, by all means, let's compare murder data. Go to google and put in "left-wing"+"murder conviction"+militant/socialist/liberal in any order. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the number will dwarf the few deranged sickos murdering gynecologists and bombing free clinics. I found five just on the first three pages of 13,000, and that was only the ones in the US.

And some people might argue that opposing abortion is neither "radical" or "extreme" In fact, some people might even argue that advancing women's rights, etc at the cost of the death of millions of the unborn would be "extreme". (Howzzat for comparing murder statistics?) That is if you believe that abortion is murder, as you would have to if you believe that "life begins at conception" like, oh, for example.........your candidate.

I don't think Gus missed you point at all. It is unfuckingbelieveable that the Democrat party has been reduced to this.

"While terrorists, oppressors, cop murderers and usurpers get all the support from the activists, our soldiers get death wishes, our cities get, well, death wishes and the whole entire country gets, you guessed it, death wishes."

I don't know what protests you are attending, but I think those death wishes are in your own imagination. America is not the root of all evil, but it is not the root of all good either.

America is the sole superpower, so its actions count in a way that other nation's actions do not. And it is our home, so we feel responsible for its actions, unilike the actions of others. Are we on the left too tough on America ? Sometimes perhaps we are. But it is not out of hatred for America. We are idealists who see what it could be. That is the source of our angst.

It is also true that if we are sometimes too tough on America, the right is almost universally too easy on it. Demanding little of it (or its allies), excusing much. The right are all patriotic cheerleading. Maybe that has its place, but it is not the sole responsible way of exercising citizenship.

Wonderfully written, michele.

Where do these protestors get the money to travel,
room and board, and free time to attend these
events? As a hard-working family man, by the end
of the day I can barely protest against my
daughter's t.v. time, much less more serious issues.

Now that I consider it, the mere fact that hundreds
of thousands of people have the disposable
income, time and energy to both gather and protest
suggests that America is indeed a wonderful place to live in. Only in America!

Michele,
So very nice to read one of your lovely logically reasoned posts again (damn, you say so well what I think but struggle to put into words)... You made my day! Please don't be a such a stranger.
thanks,
jmb

In science, the fantasy world is very important. Quite often, success at understanding and describing a system comes from leaps of imagination. Politics and human behavior needn't be any different. When you ask if someone with an End all War sign is really that naive, I would hope their response would be, "No, but I'm that optimistic". One of the purposes of a protest is to put forth opposing or alternative ideas. And sometimes, it's just that - an idea, not necessarily a literal solution. Another purpose is to show lack of complacency. Both strive to bridge a gap in understanding, and influence reasoning activity. Many highly intelligent people don't understand war, and are optimistic that other solutions besides war are possible for solving many problems. War is ONE solution to a problem (for the victors), but as any mathematician knows, to say that it is the ONLY solution, when so many of the variables haven't even been identified, leads me to believe that Jon may be clapping with one hand when he applauds his own intelligence for dismissing his classmates remark that war is a failure of imagination. We know war can be useful, we know it can be useless, and we know it can be a failure of imagination. There's a difference between faith in a reasoning process and stupidity. (e.g. I have faith in the scientific method, but I'm not stupid if I don't know the answer). I hope max is not equating dissent, or opposition with stupidity. And I would point out to max that disagreeing with a society is not the equivalent of seeking to overthrow it. In contrast to max's statement, often those who protest turn out to be great contributors to the commonwealth; and of his Darwinian concerns of a society's ability to handle detractors, there are many examples in biology of stable societies composed of opposing forces.

I was a surprised at your comment regarding the "garb of a terrorist", and then to see people referring to the kaffiyeh as a death rag and a Palestinian Fatah head rag. It seems to me that would be about as useful as referring to baseball caps as hats of the crusaders. These garments are common, are they not? Many of my Jewish and middle Eastern friends have been wearing them for years (needless to say none of them are terrorists, despite the fact that some of them have been protesters :).

Of all the "lefties" I know, I know of none that support Arafat, none that support communism, none that think America is evil. Yet some of the characterizations put forth by David C and Ebonic Plague are so general and broad, I don't see how they are useful. It would be pointless for me to use, say, the Phelps "God Hates Fags" protesters to characterize the conservative right.

Science is also about generalization to a large degree, necessary to further understanding. E.g., assuming a lack of friction in physics, or perfect information in economics. People do study friction and information dissemination in those fields, but the core insights of the fields are easier to achieve by setting them aside temporarily.

In any event, I think most of these pathologies (or any political pathologies, of any stripe) are subconscious ones, anyhow. And in fact they have to be; recognizing them for what they are would make the ideology untenable for most people.

Why is the DoD checking on Kerry's Medals? Because tampering with Military Records is a Federal Crime.

==

Steal this sig:

Why did John Kerry meet three times with the representatives of the Viet Cong and Communist North Vietnam?

Some times it takes a while to sell out your country.

New Soldier html

What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release ALL the records

Gus,
Sorry for the late reply, Typepad was timing out yesterday.

Gimme a fucking break. Apparently Mumia Abu-Jamal, the Black Panthers, and the Symbionese Liberation Army have all been forgotten by the left.

Are the Black Panthers* a relevant political force today? The SLA? How far back should we dig?

On the other hand, the examples I cited were current as the radical right is growing by leaps and bounds (according to SPLC):
Racist skinhead groups have doubled since the end of 2003,
Aryan Nations doubled their chapters in 2003,
"World Church of the Creator" was plotting to kill a judge recently,
"Patriot"/antigovernment (right-wing militia) groups jumped 20%.

*The murders attributed to the Panthers are tricky because they were better pimp, gangsters and racketeers then political activists. Some of the murders were not part of furthering any political agenda, just gang-related thuggery. But for the sake of argument we'll use your examples.

And of course the ultimate left wing socialist criminals like Stalin don’t even count, right?

The topic on which I posted is current criminal radical activists in the United States. Stalin is laughably off-topic. And of course the ultimate right wing criminals like Franco, Hitler and Mussolini don’t even count, right?

You can judge the left wingers by the company they keep and those they support. Arafat, Communism, Islamic fundamnetalism.

You're ranting off-topic again. But, if I take this argument seriously, we could just as easily judge the right-wing by the company it keeps: The dictator Ríos Montt or how about Pinochet, fascism, extremist zionism. And speaking of Islamic fundamentalism, didn't right-wing administrations (Reagan, HW Bush, GW Bush) have close ties with Saudi Arabia, help arm Saddam Hussien, and work to arm Iran (while trying to hide it from U.S. citizens)?

Not only that, they would like us to believe that the thousands of people marching with signs that say “Support Resistance in Iraq” and “I love NY better without the WTC, and “Death to America” and those that want to support Palestinan “liberation” through the destruction of all of Israel are all simply harmless.

You counted "thousands" of NYC protesters holding these signs? I find that hard to believe. How did you achieve this count? Were you at the protests?

So yes, by all means, let’s compare murder data. Go to google and put in “left-wing”+”murder conviction”+militant/socialist/liberal in any order. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that the number will dwarf the few deranged sickos murdering gynecologists and bombing free clinics. I found five just on the first three pages of 13,000, and that was only the ones in the US.

Care to cite anything specifically? You realize it's easy for websites to publish falsehoods or lie outright?

So your figures:
Mumia (1981): 1
Panthers (~1970): 12-15?
SLA (1974): 3?
Total: 19

Mine:
Abortion killings (1993-1998): 7 (There are probably more, but I'm too lazy to dig them up.)
Abbeville (2002): 2
Oklahoma City Federal Building (1995): 168
Total: 177 (within the last 10 years or so)

And some people might argue that opposing abortion is neither “radical” or “extreme” In fact, some people might even argue that advancing women’s rights, etc at the cost of the death of millions of the unborn would be “extreme”.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but abortion is legal in the United States. Regardless of law, murdering is sick espcially if it's calculated/premeditated. I hope you're not thinly trying to defend the practice of assaulting/killing abortion doctors.

ok, ep

Er, sorry posting above should be addressed to "Ebonic Plague".
ep

It's ok, ep. We all make mistakes.

However...

murdering is sick espcially if it’s calculated/premeditated.

Which actually bosters the pro-life position against abortion.

Click here for a look at the violence committed by pro-abortion people.

I was in history class in HS. We were discussing the 2nd World War and one particular dim-bulb was asked her opinion of world leaders at the start of the conflict.

"Hitler was a dumb-butt." was how she put it.

When I see people today holding the "Stop All Wars" signs, I look for her, hoping to recognize her face. Statements like hers (and the completely clueless mixture of naivete and coming way-late to the argument) are unfortunately, not that rare. Sadly, I have yet to see her surface.

And these are the people who will turn around and tell us we see the world too simplistically, too black & white.

Friggin morons.

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