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August 11, 2004
John F. Kerry - Fighter Pilot?
In an effort to inject "more light, less heat" in the debate about 2 of the more famous incidents in John F. Kerry's unusual career, here's a few facts I've gleaned while investigating for myself just exactly WTF is being claimed, by whom and why. Fiust I state what's been said about Kerry. Then - and often the most difficult to do - I find out and quote exactly what it was that John F.Kerry actually said about the incident. I then adduce some relevant background and technical facts that often debunk some of the more common (but reasonable) pro/con arguments, and finally (and least valuably given my decidedly anti-Kerry stance in the past) give an opinion based on my analysis. Fighter Pilot Over Egypt First, I'll take the most extraordinary (but less well publicised) claim :That John F.Kerry piloted an Israeli Fighter in an illegal incursion into Egypt. This one is based on remarks to the Anti-Defamation League, dated May 3, 2004.And subsequently, we went south. I got to go down to the Ovda Air Base. We climbed Masada. I'll tell you about that in a minute.Now the first thing anyone who's flown a military jet before is that there is no way a complete novice would be allowed to take off like that! And then, to do aerobatics? This is, on the face of it, a very incredible statement. But... The aircraft supposedly involved was a 'Fuga trainer'. It was most emphatically not a fighter, and he never said it was. The Fouga Magister, updated and revised, is actually a jet-powered version of what was originally a glider. It's still in Israeli service, and is approaching 50 years old. It is a 'basic jet trainer', exactly what you use to transition a relatively skilled propellor pilot onto jets, before going on to an 'advanced trainer', and thence to a hot combat aircraft. It's also stressed for aerobatics, and has been used by the IDF's aerobatic team. Yes, to take a US Senator for a ride like this against official instructions would be reckless. But Ace fighter pilots of every nation have been known since time immemorial to do things like this, and it's unlikely they'll ever stop. I'm not able to say whether Kerry was lying, exaggerating, or telling the truth, plain and simple. I can say that what he's saying, unreasonable though it may sound, may be the truth. It's plausible. As for the 'illegal incursion' bit, the words wereyou're going over Egyptnot you've gone into Egyptand to an unbiased observer could well have been a warning, rather than a statement of fact. Conclusion : Until the (unknown) Israeli Ace Colonel speaks out, or the IDF denies that the flight took place, there's no reason why Kerry should be called a liar on this one. Yes, it surprised me too. As for the "incursion"? Possibly there was a technical violation. We don't know enough. Certainly it wasn't serious, or there would have been hell to pay. "Kerry Pilots Israeli Fighter Over Egypt"? Absolutely not. "Kerry Pilots Israeli Trainer Worryingly Close to Egyptian Border", yes, that's what he says anyway. Now for the more contentious and better-publicised claim. Christmas in Cambodia The claim here is that John F. Kerry personally commanded a Swift Boat in an illegal incursion into Cambodia during Christmas 1968, to land a CIA operative. This appears to be an amalgamation of three separate statements by John F.Kerry, one in the Congressional Record, one still to be found on the John Kerry Campaign Site, and one reported in the Associated Press dated 1992, still available through the magic of Google's Newsgroup Archives From the Congressional Record :Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared-seared-in me....From the Kerry/Edwards for President Site : A close associate hints: There's a secret compartment in Kerry's briefcase. He carries the black attache everywhere. Asked about it on several occasions, Kerry brushed it aside. Finally, trapped in an interview, he exhaled and clicked open his case.[Someone fetch me a bucket! But I digress.] Now from the 1992 AP story: By JOHN DIAMOND Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) -- Navy Lt. John Kerry knew he had no business steering his Mekong River patrol boat across the border into Cambodia, but orders were orders.No kidding. And there's so much partisanship on both sides of the question that it's only just started. Hence this article. Anyway, Onwards and Upwards. There's also the statement at US News and World Report from May 8th, 2000, that : Sen. John Kerry made his first forays into Cambodia during the Vietnam War as a Navy lieutenant on clandestine missions to deliver weapons to anticommunist forcesbut without a direct quote in support, I'm discarding this as a journalistic bobble, on a par with the AP's '6 months of service' instead of the actual 4 months 12 days. Hat Tip to Just One Minute nonetheless for a cracking good piece of research. The most recent version of Kerry's Cambodian Experiences is from the 16th July edition of his hometown paper, the Boston Globe, as written by... Michael Kranich. Where have I heard that name before?: The Christmas Eve truce of 1968 was three minutes old when mortar fire exploded around John Forbes Kerry and his five-man crew on a 50-foot aluminum boat near Cambodia. ''Where is the enemy?'' a crewmate shouted. [...]Yet according to ,a href="Kerry Haters (not exactly a pro-Kerry source) Douglas Brinkley's book Tour of Duty (not exactly an anti-Kerry7 source) tells a significantly different story : The next story is about South Vietnamese troops shooting off their guns to celebrate Christmas. Kerry's boat returns to Sa Dec. To highlight the geography for us, Brinkley cites Kerry's war diary, which talks about a ... message to the Admiral, "Merry Christmas from the most inland time unit." He supposedly meant to point out the incongruity of his "crew spending their holiday on a river canal not far from the Cambodian border." A paragraph or two later, Wasser mentions, "We were coming closer to Cambodia..."And that is the last confusing version I've been able to track down. From the above, we have the following : Various claims have been made, such as that there were no US forces, covert or otherwise, in Cambodia in 1968. Or that the Khmer Rouge didn't exist in 1968, so couldn't have fired at him (they started operations on January 17, 1968 BTW). Or that the Cambodian armed forces didn't patrol the border, so couldn't have fired either. Or that a navigational error would be impossible due to a fork in the river. Or that Kerry never said he was 'in' Cambodia, only 'near' it (some of the quotes above should debunk that last bit ). From the July 26 1968 State Department Diplomatic Telegram :On July 17 a US Army utility landing craft (LCU 1577) with 11 Americans and one RVN policeman on board inadvertently strayed into Cambodian waters on Mekong River and was seized by Cambodian Navy. [...]From a Top Secret State Department Memo of December 12, 1968 : Daniel Boone is an intelligence collection program, carried on since May 1967, in a strip 20 kilometers wide within the Cambodian border. Reconnaissance teams of two or three Americans and six to nine Vietnamese and/or Montagnards are inserted in this area by helicopter for observation of VC/NVA presence or activities. Assistant Secretary of Defense Warnke has written you (Tab A) proposing the establishment of a new Daniel Boone operational area to be known as Zone Charlie. [...] So we know that : However... the 'Black Ops' appear to have been recorded. All but one of the insertions of CIA or Special Force Operatives was done by Helicopter. Moreover, there was especial concern that 'Navigational Mistakes' not be made again, as the Cambodian Navy aggressively patrolled the border, and captured any vessel straying into their territory. 'Prominent Navigation aids' were to be set up some time after late July 1968. This is in accordance with the memories of various Swift Boatmen :HH: What months did you serve with Senator Kerry?Meanwhile, it's a matter of undisputed hitorical fact that Richard M.Nixon was elected President of the US on November 5th, 1968, but didn't take office until 1969. It's also a matter of undisputed geographical fact that to engage in 'Black Ops' in Laos, a Swift boat would have to cross through the whole of Cambodia, including the capital, Phnomh Penh, to do it. Depending upon which reporter you listen to, Kerry was either in Cambodia, near Cambodia, just inside Cambodia, or just outside Cambodia. But he dropped CIA operatives there, and possibly in Laos too. Not just him, "everybody did it". Unless you believe the (possibly incomplete or falsified) documents, and more importantly, what every other person who was in the area says. Either all of the reporters have gotten it totally wrong, or Kerry's been telling each of them different stories. I don't have the foggiest which one it is, let alone what the truth actually is, based on reports of Kerry's accounts alone. The one clear, incontravertible account we know came from Kerry's lips is in the Congressional Record - where he states that Richard Nixon was President in Christmas 1968. There's been a call for Kerry to open up his military records. I'd settle for a single, clear statement from Kerry or the DNC on exactly how to reconcile all of the above accounts, and why haven't the gross contradictions been corrected by Kerry before? UPDATE: From Fox :In an Oct. 14, 1979, letter to the editor of the Boston Herald, Kerry wrote: "I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."UPDATE: From Human Events Online : But today, on Fox News' "Fox and Friends," Kerry Campaign Advisor Jeh Johnson had this to say to the show's co-host Brian Kilmeade:Posted By Zoe Brain at August 11, 2004 05:00 AM | TrackBack Comments
No HAI (High Altitude Indoctrination) course for Kerry in Israel?
Posted by: CERDIP The fighter story is merely to keep up with W. Anything Bush does Kerry has to do. The man has to be the bride at every wedding.
Posted by: jones One Clintonesque parsing of the Cambobia/Nixon quote could hold that Kerry's statement that he was in Cambodia and that Nixon had denied any troups were in that same country does not necessarilly require that the two events happened contemporaneously. For example, I can truthfully say "I vividly remember being in Japan in 1994. The irony of having a beer in the very same country which Douglas McArthur ran under the SCAP was not lost on me." While in my case the statement is clearly understood due to the great difference in time between the events, I can find no logical reason for the temporal juxtiposition in Kerry's but to obfuscate and implicate Nixon in his alleged incursion. Posted by: submandave Hmmm, 6ft 4 1/2 in tall Kerry squeezed himself into a tiny underpowered aircraft and looped in it?
Posted by: MMG
The Kerry campaign has abandoned the Christmas in Cambodia story and opted for a totally unconvincing version that he was in Cambodia on some other date. I've been suspicious that Kerry was selectively withholding service and/or medical records as a response to all the contradictory evidence over his VietNam service. It may have been Mickey Kaus who suggested early on that Kerry might have some self-serving records held back to blunt any last minute criticism. Yes, it's possible he has something helpful in reserve, but it seems doubtful he will be able to prove anything close to the ever-changing CIA, SEAL, gun running, etc. explanations by releasing official records. So why would he say it?
Another possibility is that Kerry is just channeling the story of more heroic or famous veterans, such as Swift Boat Officer Elmo Zumwalt III. In the April Fool's edition of the Congressional Record (actual legislative day was 3/30/1987), Kerry inserted a New York Times Magazine article (described below) into the records of the U.S. Senate. Fortunately, the full text of the article can be read (more easily) here (scroll down) or here. The article is an exerpt of the Zumwalts' book -- "My Father, My Son" -- published 9/1/1986 or six months after Kerry's Senate speech on 3/27/1986, although it's reasonable to expect that Kerry would have been familiar with its substance well before that. It's a tragic story that was later made into a TV movie and well worth reading. But the most interesting part of the story as it relates to Kerry is that Elmo (the son) reveals how he violated orders by taking his swift boat into Cambodia in late 1969 and his story is corroborated by Admiral Zumwalt. By that time Kerry was long gone from VietNam, but it's an interesting hypothesis and of course, Kerry does manage a Hollywood reference. Don't be surprised if a story like this pops up to explain away all the inconsistencies. Congressional Record ---- Senate Wednesday, April 1, 1987; Posted by: ter0
Here's another entry for your comprehensive "Kerry in Cambodia" reference list.
Commenter "Ripper" at JustOneMinute researched this and posted here. (scroll down til you see Posted by: Ripper | August 10, 2004 09:37 AM) The gist of it is a copy of the cover and introductory page to Kerry's Senate report to the Committee on Foreign Relations on his 1991 Trip to Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam here's the relevant part on page 1 "... During the war, military operations had carried me throughout many of the waterways and coast lines of southern Vietnam and even, occasionally, into Cambodia. "Nothing earthshaking but still another specific reference. Posted by: ter0 I was on the staff of Adm. Zumwalt from April - September 1968. I remember the flap that Army LCU made when it strayed into Cambodia as a result of poor navigation. At that time, Cambodia was a neutral country under Prince Sianouk. There would have been covert operations there, but it was absolutely forbidden for any of our Navy boats to go up in there because of the political ramifications if caught. Any CIA or other covert operators would have gone into Cambodia in a "deniable" way (like a sampan or water taxi, or "civilian" (Air America) aircraft. A Swiftboat would have been an obvious provocation. Upon leaving the staff in September, I transferred out to the YRBM-18. This was a support platform for PBR patrol boats that was moved up to the Vam Co rivers in the so-called Parrot's Beak area on the border with Cambodia. This was at the same time that Kerry was in country. Some of the Vam CO Tay river our boats patrolled was the actual border. We were strictly forbidden to enter Cambodia, and in that stretch of water, the boats needed to hug the Vietnam side to avoid incidents. As for the Admiral's son, the Navy has always allowed people to grasp initiative - with the proviso that if you screw-up, you are hung out to dry. Lt. Zumwalt knew that if everything didn't turn out just perfectly for him, he could have been court martialed: yet he took the risk. Somehow I just can't envision Kerry taking the same risk. That is probably why Kerry's CO didn't court martial him for beaching his boat during the incident where he got the Silver Star. It was against standing orders and was really, really stupid; but since he and his men came back in one piece he was cut some slack. Posted by: Bill Bill --
Posted by: ter0 This shows that Kerry is either a liar or a traitor (or both). For one thing, if he was involved in black ops, then shame on him for discussing them in a public forum. If not, he is a liar.
Posted by: KySharpshooter ter0,
Posted by: Bill John Kerry is no liar. You must believe his Senate testimony when he says he committed war crimes.
Posted by: M. Simon
Thanks again Bill,
This is excellent insight. I sure hadn't heard about the boats patrolling in pairs and I guess I knew there was a size distinction between Swifts and PBRs. I also heard one of the Swift Boat Vets say the PBRs were jet boats and I remembered O'Neal say one of the swifts lost its screws when it hit a mine -- so I looked up the specs. It's obvious now why PBRs were used in the shallower water -- shorter, shallower draft, no props to get hung up. Very interesting. Swift Boat Specs Length: 50 feet 1.5 inches Beam: 13 feet 6.5 inches PBR Specs Length: 31 feet Beam: 10 feet 7 inches Posted by: ter0 SwiftBoats - Crew of six.
Posted by: Cap'n DOC Here's some additional info about the patrol boats used in Vietnam. The Swiftboats were based on a civilian design used for offshore oil rig support in the Gulf of Mexico. The gun tub over the enclosed pilot house mounted twin .50 calibar machine guns. The after mount was an interesting over/under combination of a .50 calibar machine gun and an 81mm mortar. The mortar could be used for either indirect (high angle) fire, or direct fire (point it straight at the target like a rifle.) PBRs had twin .50s mounted in a tub on the foredeck. On the stern, there were considerable varations, depending on the boat. Back there cou could find an automatic or semi-automatic 40mm grenade launcher, 60mm mortar, and/or M60, 7.62mm machine gun. The PBRs came in two versions. The Mark I had a sloping foredeck and was the original version. The Mark II had a flat foredeck and was about 5 knots faster. The extra speed was critical for survival and once sufficient numbers of the Mark II got incountry, the Mark Is were usually operated in the less dangerous areas. Posted by: Bill Thanks Bill, informative as usual --
Posted by: ter0 Post a comment
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