The Command Post
Iraq
August 11, 2004
John F. Kerry - Fighter Pilot?

In an effort to inject "more light, less heat" in the debate about 2 of the more famous incidents in John F. Kerry's unusual career, here's a few facts I've gleaned while investigating for myself just exactly WTF is being claimed, by whom and why.

Fiust I state what's been said about Kerry. Then - and often the most difficult to do - I find out and quote exactly what it was that John F.Kerry actually said about the incident. I then adduce some relevant background and technical facts that often debunk some of the more common (but reasonable) pro/con arguments, and finally (and least valuably given my decidedly anti-Kerry stance in the past) give an opinion based on my analysis.

Fighter Pilot Over Egypt

First, I'll take the most extraordinary (but less well publicised) claim :That John F.Kerry piloted an Israeli Fighter in an illegal incursion into Egypt.

This one is based on remarks to the Anti-Defamation League, dated May 3, 2004.
And subsequently, we went south. I got to go down to the Ovda Air Base. We climbed Masada. I'll tell you about that in a minute.

But at Ovda Air Base -- I'm a pilot, and I was longing to get up into Israel airspace. And I made several requests of Tel Aviv, and Tel Aviv kept saying, "No, we don't think this is a good idea, for the senator to go flying."

Finally, I sort of nudged the colonel that I was with. And he was an ace from the '67 war. And I said, "Colonel, is there no way we could arrange this? Would you mind going back and calling Tel Aviv and see if we could do a flight?"

So lo and behold, he gets up from the table. And we're starting to eat. And he comes back about 10 minutes later, and he says -- (speaking with the colonel's accent) -- "Senator, I hope you don't eat too much. We're going flying." (Laughter.)

So the next thing I know, I'm whisked out to the airport, which is right there, out to the airstrip, and he tells me, "Look, I'm not going to have time to give you all the instructions, but the minute we take off, it's your airplane." (Laughter.)

Now I had never explained to him whether I'd ever flown a jet before or anything.

And he was very trusting. And I got out to the tarmac and I got into my suit and my helmet and jumped into the airplane. It was a trainer, a Fuga trainer. And I got in the front seat, he got in the back. He was indeed very trusting. That's why he was an ace! (Laughter.) And we take off.

And literally, you know, we're about five feet above the runway and he gives me this signal with a stick, says, "Your plane." So I take it off. We go up into the sky. Climb up, head down towards Aqaba. And I wanted to look at Aqaba, so I'm coming down over Aqaba, and I suddenly hear this voice in the intercom and he says, "Senator, you better turn faster, you're going over Egypt." (Laughter.) So I started to wrap it in and do a faster turn.

Then I asked him if I could do a loop, a little aerobatics. And he said fine. So I went up to about 12,000 feet and proceeded to go in and do a loop. And I want you to know, ladies and gentlemen, that to be able to come out upside down and look down and catch the horizon in back of me, and see all the way down into the Sinai, to the old base that had been given up, all the way across into Jordan, all the way out into the Gulf of Aqaba, and to see Israel beneath me, and the lines contained, and to see it all upside down was the perfect way to see the Middle East and Israel. (Laughter, applause.)
Now the first thing anyone who's flown a military jet before is that there is no way a complete novice would be allowed to take off like that! And then, to do aerobatics? This is, on the face of it, a very incredible statement.

But...

The aircraft supposedly involved was a 'Fuga trainer'. It was most emphatically not a fighter, and he never said it was. The Fouga Magister, updated and revised, is actually a jet-powered version of what was originally a glider. It's still in Israeli service, and is approaching 50 years old. It is a 'basic jet trainer', exactly what you use to transition a relatively skilled propellor pilot onto jets, before going on to an 'advanced trainer', and thence to a hot combat aircraft. It's also stressed for aerobatics, and has been used by the IDF's aerobatic team. Yes, to take a US Senator for a ride like this against official instructions would be reckless. But Ace fighter pilots of every nation have been known since time immemorial to do things like this, and it's unlikely they'll ever stop.

I'm not able to say whether Kerry was lying, exaggerating, or telling the truth, plain and simple. I can say that what he's saying, unreasonable though it may sound, may be the truth. It's plausible.

As for the 'illegal incursion' bit, the words were
you're going over Egypt
not
you've gone into Egypt
and to an unbiased observer could well have been a warning, rather than a statement of fact.

Conclusion : Until the (unknown) Israeli Ace Colonel speaks out, or the IDF denies that the flight took place, there's no reason why Kerry should be called a liar on this one. Yes, it surprised me too. As for the "incursion"? Possibly there was a technical violation. We don't know enough. Certainly it wasn't serious, or there would have been hell to pay. "Kerry Pilots Israeli Fighter Over Egypt"? Absolutely not. "Kerry Pilots Israeli Trainer Worryingly Close to Egyptian Border", yes, that's what he says anyway.

Now for the more contentious and better-publicised claim.

Christmas in Cambodia

The claim here is that John F. Kerry personally commanded a Swift Boat in an illegal incursion into Cambodia during Christmas 1968, to land a CIA operative.

This appears to be an amalgamation of three separate statements by John F.Kerry, one in the Congressional Record, one still to be found on the John Kerry Campaign Site, and one reported in the Associated Press dated 1992, still available through the magic of Google's Newsgroup Archives

From the Congressional Record :
Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared-seared-in me....
From the Kerry/Edwards for President Site :
A close associate hints: There's a secret compartment in Kerry's briefcase. He carries the black attache everywhere. Asked about it on several occasions, Kerry brushed it aside. Finally, trapped in an interview, he exhaled and clicked open his case.

"Who told you?" he demanded as he reached inside. "My friends don't know about this."

The hat was a little mildewy. The green camouflage was fading, the seams fraying.

"My good luck hat," Kerry said, happy to see it. "Given to me by a CIA guy as we went in for a special mission in Cambodia."

Kerry put on the hat, pulling the brim over his forehead. His blue button-down shirt and tie clashed with the camouflage. He pointed his finger and raised his thumb, creating an imaginary gun. He looked silly, yet suddenly his campaign message was clear: Citizen-soldier. Linking patriotism to public service. It wasn't complex after all; it was Kerry.

He smiled and aimed his finger: "Pow."
[Someone fetch me a bucket! But I digress.] Now from the 1992 AP story:
By JOHN DIAMOND Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) -- Navy Lt. John Kerry knew he had no business steering his Mekong River patrol boat across the border into Cambodia, but orders were orders.
[...]
But for Kerry, who spent six violent months commanding a patrol boat on the Mekong River, there's always been a ring of truth to allegations of abandoned Americans. By Christmas 1968, part of Kerry's patrol extended across the border of South Vietnam into Cambodia.
"We were told, `Just go up there and do your patrol. Everybody was over there(in Cambodia). Nobody thought twice about it," Kerry said. One of the missions, which Kerry, at the time, was ordered not to discuss, involved taking CIA operatives into Cambodia to search for enemy enclaves.
"I can remember wondering, `If you're going to go, what happens to you,"'Kerry said.
[...]
Some of the missions were routine cross-border actions, not sanctioned as part of the official U.S. war effort. Others were "black ops," secret operations far into Laotian and Cambodian territory.
[...]
The military's falsification of records created a lasting problem in sorting out the killed, captured and unknown.
"The lists are so screwed up frankly that it's very hard to patch it together," Kerry said.
Kerry emphasizes that he has no evidence that any U.S. serviceman remains alive in captivity in Southeast Asia. Nor does he speak of any Rambo-like rescue mission. Rather, the next step is a methodical and continuing unfolding of the facts.
"It's not a good story but it's important that we understand it and it's important that we put the conspiracy theories behind us if we can," Kerry said.
"But we're not there yet."
No kidding. And there's so much partisanship on both sides of the question that it's only just started. Hence this article. Anyway, Onwards and Upwards. There's also the statement at US News and World Report from May 8th, 2000, that :
Sen. John Kerry made his first forays into Cambodia during the Vietnam War as a Navy lieutenant on clandestine missions to deliver weapons to anticommunist forces
but without a direct quote in support, I'm discarding this as a journalistic bobble, on a par with the AP's '6 months of service' instead of the actual 4 months 12 days. Hat Tip to Just One Minute nonetheless for a cracking good piece of research. The most recent version of Kerry's Cambodian Experiences is from the 16th July edition of his hometown paper, the Boston Globe, as written by... Michael Kranich. Where have I heard that name before?:
The Christmas Eve truce of 1968 was three minutes old when mortar fire exploded around John Forbes Kerry and his five-man crew on a 50-foot aluminum boat near Cambodia. ''Where is the enemy?'' a crewmate shouted. [...]
On the same night, Kerry and his crew had come within a half-inch of being killed by "friendly fire," when some South Vietnamese allies launched several rounds into the river to celebrate the holiday. To top it off, Kerry said, he had gone several miles inside Cambodia, which theoretically was off limits, prompting Kerry to send a sarcastic message to his superiors that he was writing from the Navy's "most inland" unit.
Yet according to ,a href="Kerry Haters (not exactly a pro-Kerry source) Douglas Brinkley's book Tour of Duty (not exactly an anti-Kerry7 source) tells a significantly different story :
The next story is about South Vietnamese troops shooting off their guns to celebrate Christmas. Kerry's boat returns to Sa Dec. To highlight the geography for us, Brinkley cites Kerry's war diary, which talks about a ... message to the Admiral, "Merry Christmas from the most inland time unit." He supposedly meant to point out the incongruity of his "crew spending their holiday on a river canal not far from the Cambodian border." A paragraph or two later, Wasser mentions, "We were coming closer to Cambodia..."
And that is the last confusing version I've been able to track down.

From the above, we have the following :
Kerry was in Cambodia on Christmas Day, 1968.
Kerry was in Cambodia when Nixon was both president and denying that US troops were in Cambodia (not neccessarily Xmas 1968) .
Kerry was fired at by Khmer Rouge, Cambodians, and Vietnamese (not neccessarily Xmas 1968) .
Kerry was given a 'special lucky hat' by a CIA operative when they both went in to Cambodia on a 'special mission' (not neccessarily Xmas 1968).
By Christmas 1968, Kerry's Unit's patrols included crossings to Cambodia on a routine basis
By Christmas 1968, apart from these 'routine' crossings, 'black ops' were conducted by Kerry's Unit, including deep penetrations into Cambodia and Laos.
Kerry was several miles in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, and spent Christmas day being shot at by Vietnamese in Sa Dec.
Kerry was near Cambodia on Christmas Eve, and spent Christmas day being shot at by Vietnamese in Sa Dec.

Various claims have been made, such as that there were no US forces, covert or otherwise, in Cambodia in 1968. Or that the Khmer Rouge didn't exist in 1968, so couldn't have fired at him (they started operations on January 17, 1968 BTW). Or that the Cambodian armed forces didn't patrol the border, so couldn't have fired either. Or that a navigational error would be impossible due to a fork in the river. Or that Kerry never said he was 'in' Cambodia, only 'near' it (some of the quotes above should debunk that last bit ).

From the July 26 1968 State Department Diplomatic Telegram :
On July 17 a US Army utility landing craft (LCU 1577) with 11 Americans and one RVN policeman on board inadvertently strayed into Cambodian waters on Mekong River and was seized by Cambodian Navy. [...]
4. Action: Please arrange meeting with Cambodian Ambassador Nong Kimny and express to him our urgent interest in release of crew. You should present following facts and US views.

A. Incident was entirely inadvertent, with no hostile intent.

B. LCU 1577 is utility landing craft designed for handling heavy and bulky cargoes. With length 120 feet, beam 32 feet, max speed 8 knots, craft is obviously not one which we would contemplate employing for deliberate or provocative penetration of Cambodian territory. Royal Cambodian Navy possesses several LCU's and can confirm details of performance. Craft was armed with two .50-caliber machine guns and one M-60 7.62 mm. light machine gun, plus individual weapons of crew members and passengers (M-16's, carbines, pistols, and one M-79 grenade launcher). This armament exclusively for defense against hostile fire along waterways within RVN. Cargo included 200 drums of solvent, two commercial forklift trucks, 34 drums JP-4 fuel (kerosene), and 6 containers miscellaneous supplies. As make-up of cargo suggests, craft was on routine resupply run to US installations in Mekong Delta. Route was from base at Vung Tau via Mekong River and cut-off to Bassac River, then down Bassac to Can Tho. Apparently craft missed first turning, about seven miles from border, and proceeded up river into Cambodian territory. Navigational error was same as that of Philippine tugboat Bream, which RKG has now returned, following release of Filipino crew and two US military policemen who were on board.

C. We are conducting further investigation to determine how error was made and whether any individual responsibility can be assigned. In addition, we are taking measures to avoid such incidents in future. These include but are not limited to more thorough crew indoctrination and briefing, embarcation of personnel familiar with area near border, establishment of prominent aids to navigation and control points, and provision of positive method to warn shipping of approach to Cambodian border.
From a Top Secret State Department Memo of December 12, 1968 :
Daniel Boone is an intelligence collection program, carried on since May 1967, in a strip 20 kilometers wide within the Cambodian border. Reconnaissance teams of two or three Americans and six to nine Vietnamese and/or Montagnards are inserted in this area by helicopter for observation of VC/NVA presence or activities. Assistant Secretary of Defense Warnke has written you (Tab A) proposing the establishment of a new Daniel Boone operational area to be known as Zone Charlie. [...]
Six of the seven missions conducted in the proposed new zone took place in the first half of October (the seventh was run in late 1967). On one of these, a gunship was shot down, crashing on the Vietnamese side of the border. All but one involved insertions by helicopter, on which there are now no limitations once a target has been approved.

So we know that :
a) Navigational mistakes had been made in the past, leading to incursions.
b) The Cambodian Navy actively patrolled the border, and had captured 2 US vessels that accidentally crossed it.
c) 'Black Ops' inside Cambodia had been launched as late as October, and future ops were being re-considered during early December 1968.

However... the 'Black Ops' appear to have been recorded. All but one of the insertions of CIA or Special Force Operatives was done by Helicopter. Moreover, there was especial concern that 'Navigational Mistakes' not be made again, as the Cambodian Navy aggressively patrolled the border, and captured any vessel straying into their territory. 'Prominent Navigation aids' were to be set up some time after late July 1968.

This is in accordance with the memories of various Swift Boatmen :
HH: What months did you serve with Senator Kerry?

SG: November through January. Here's what I did. I served two months and two weeks of his four month, 12 day tour.

HH: Alright. Why did you leave off in january. What happened in January?

SG: That was my rotation time.

HH: OK. When you were on the boat, did you ever go into Cambodian waters?

SG: Absolutely not. That was a physical impossibility to go inside Cambodian waters.

HH; Why?

SG: They had four or five, at all times, boats, plus they had it wired with wire, they had concrete pylons down so that thee only time they could get through it was at high tide, and that was just so the sampans and the people that trafficked back and forth could get through.

HH: Now you served with him on Christmas Eve 1968, correct?

SG: That is correct.

HH: What did you do on Christmas Eve 1968?

SG: Well, I damn sure wasn't in Cambodia, I'll tell you that.

HH: (Laughter) Do you remember?

SG: We were basically just down in the lower part of the Sa Dec. just patrolling.
Meanwhile, it's a matter of undisputed hitorical fact that Richard M.Nixon was elected President of the US on November 5th, 1968, but didn't take office until 1969. It's also a matter of undisputed geographical fact that to engage in 'Black Ops' in Laos, a Swift boat would have to cross through the whole of Cambodia, including the capital, Phnomh Penh, to do it.

Depending upon which reporter you listen to, Kerry was either in Cambodia, near Cambodia, just inside Cambodia, or just outside Cambodia. But he dropped CIA operatives there, and possibly in Laos too. Not just him, "everybody did it". Unless you believe the (possibly incomplete or falsified) documents, and more importantly, what every other person who was in the area says. Either all of the reporters have gotten it totally wrong, or Kerry's been telling each of them different stories. I don't have the foggiest which one it is, let alone what the truth actually is, based on reports of Kerry's accounts alone. The one clear, incontravertible account we know came from Kerry's lips is in the Congressional Record - where he states that Richard Nixon was President in Christmas 1968.

There's been a call for Kerry to open up his military records. I'd settle for a single, clear statement from Kerry or the DNC on exactly how to reconcile all of the above accounts, and why haven't the gross contradictions been corrected by Kerry before?

UPDATE: From Fox :
In an Oct. 14, 1979, letter to the editor of the Boston Herald, Kerry wrote: "I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."
UPDATE: From Human Events Online :
But today, on Fox News' "Fox and Friends," Kerry Campaign Advisor Jeh Johnson had this to say to the show's co-host Brian Kilmeade:
JOHNSON: John Kerry has said on the record that he had a mistaken recollection earlier. He talked about a combat situation on Christmas Eve 1968 which at one point he said occurred in Cambodia. He has since corrected the recorded to say it was some place on a river near Cambodia and he is certain that at some point subsequent to that he was in Cambodia. My understanding is that he is not certain about that date.

KILMEADE: I think the term was he had a searing memory of spending Christmas - back in 1986 in the senate floor in Cambodia.

JOHNSON: I believe he has corrected the record to say it was some place near Cambodia he is not certain whether it was in Cambodia but he is certain there was some point subsequent to that that he was in Cambodia.
Posted By Zoe Brain at August 11, 2004 05:00 AM | TrackBack
Comments

No HAI (High Altitude Indoctrination) course for Kerry in Israel?

I'm surprised that an Israeli fighter cmbat ace had no concerns about having a US Senator passed out from hypoxia in the front seat with his hands on the throttle and stick...

Posted by: CERDIP [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 11, 2004 11:38 AM

The fighter story is merely to keep up with W. Anything Bush does Kerry has to do. The man has to be the bride at every wedding.

I keep waiting for him to talk about how he earned his Dolphins.

Posted by: jones [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 11, 2004 02:40 PM

One Clintonesque parsing of the Cambobia/Nixon quote could hold that Kerry's statement that he was in Cambodia and that Nixon had denied any troups were in that same country does not necessarilly require that the two events happened contemporaneously. For example, I can truthfully say "I vividly remember being in Japan in 1994. The irony of having a beer in the very same country which Douglas McArthur ran under the SCAP was not lost on me." While in my case the statement is clearly understood due to the great difference in time between the events, I can find no logical reason for the temporal juxtiposition in Kerry's but to obfuscate and implicate Nixon in his alleged incursion.

Posted by: submandave [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 11, 2004 04:02 PM

Hmmm, 6ft 4 1/2 in tall Kerry squeezed himself into a tiny underpowered aircraft and looped in it?

I recall some years ago hearing that a brother of an acquaintance was not accepted for pilot training in the Irish Air Corps because he was too tall. Apparently the IAC had a 6ft height limit because anyone taller just wouldn't fit in the Fouga Magisters.

Maybe someone can confirm if Israeli Magisters had a similar height restriction?

The IAC also used the Magisters to form an aerobatic display team, the Silver Swallows, for a few years but because the aircraft were a little underpowered, manuevres like loops were marginal and had to be performed with care.

It is very unlikely an ace pilot would allow an unrated pilot to perform a tricky manuevre during his first flight in an aircraft.

There are old pilots, there are bold pilots. But there are no old, bold pilots.

Posted by: MMG [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 11, 2004 06:14 PM

The Kerry campaign has abandoned the Christmas in Cambodia story and opted for a totally unconvincing version that he was in Cambodia on some other date. I've been suspicious that Kerry was selectively withholding service and/or medical records as a response to all the contradictory evidence over his VietNam service. It may have been Mickey Kaus who suggested early on that Kerry might have some self-serving records held back to blunt any last minute criticism. Yes, it's possible he has something helpful in reserve, but it seems doubtful he will be able to prove anything close to the ever-changing CIA, SEAL, gun running, etc. explanations by releasing official records. So why would he say it?

Another possibility is that Kerry is just channeling the story of more heroic or famous veterans, such as Swift Boat Officer Elmo Zumwalt III. In the April Fool's edition of the Congressional Record (actual legislative day was 3/30/1987), Kerry inserted a New York Times Magazine article (described below) into the records of the U.S. Senate. Fortunately, the full text of the article can be read (more easily) here (scroll down) or here.

The article is an exerpt of the Zumwalts' book -- "My Father, My Son" -- published 9/1/1986 or six months after Kerry's Senate speech on 3/27/1986, although it's reasonable to expect that Kerry would have been familiar with its substance well before that. It's a tragic story that was later made into a TV movie and well worth reading.

But the most interesting part of the story as it relates to Kerry is that Elmo (the son) reveals how he violated orders by taking his swift boat into Cambodia in late 1969 and his story is corroborated by Admiral Zumwalt. By that time Kerry was long gone from VietNam, but it's an interesting hypothesis and of course, Kerry does manage a Hollywood reference. Don't be surprised if a story like this pops up to explain away all the inconsistencies.

Congressional Record ---- Senate Wednesday, April 1, 1987;
(Legislative day of Monday, March 30, 1987)
100th Cong. 1st Sess.
133 Cong Rec S 4386
REFERENCE: Vol. 133 No. 53
TITLE: AGENT ORANGE
SPEAKER: MR. KERRY
TEXT: Text that appears in UPPER CASE identifies statements or insertions which are not spoken by a Member of the
Senate on the floor.

MR. KERRY. MR. PRESIDENT, THE RECOGNITION OF THE FILM "PLATOON" AS BEST PICTURE OF
THE YEAR IN THE ACADEMY AWARDS CEREMONY REMINDS US ONCE AGAIN THAT, IN MANY WAYS,
THE LEGACY OF VIETNAM IS STILL WITH US. ONE IMPORTANT AND TRAGIC LEGACY OF VIETNAM
THAT HAS YET TO BE DEALT WITH BY OUR SOCIETY AND BY THE CONGRESS IS THE ISSUE OF AGENT
ORANGE.

******
ELMO ZUMWALT III HAS WRITTEN AND SPOKEN ELOQUENTLY ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF AGENT
ORANGE IN THE BOOK WHICH HE WROTE WITH HIS FATHER, ADM. ELMO ZUMWALT, JR., ENTITLED
"MY FATHER, MY SON." THIS BOOK IS A MOVING, PERSONAL ACCOUNT OF ONE FAMILY'S PERSONAL
TRAGEDY CAUSED BY AGENT ORANGE.
ELMO ZUMWALT III, WHO SERVED AS I DID AS A SWIFT--BOAT OFFICER IN VIETNAM, WROTE:

*********

I ASK THAT AN ARTICLE FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE BY ELMO ZUMWALT, JR., AND
ELMO ZUMWALT III, ENTITLED "AGENT ORANGE AND THE ANGUISH OF AN AMERICAN FAMILY," BE
PLACED IN THE RECORD.
AGENT ORANGE AND THE ANGUISH OF AN AMERICAN FAMILY
(BY ELMO ZUMWALT, JR., AND ELMO ZUMWALT III)

*************
(Elmo III):

AT DUSK ONE DAY LATE IN 1969, WE SLIPPED UNDER THE OVERHANGING JUNGLE GROWTH
ALONG A CANAL BANK. I KNEW WE WERE A FEW HUNDRED YARDS INSIDE CAMBODIA. I ALSO
KNEW THAT JUST BY CROSSING INTO CAMBODIA I WAS IN VIOLATION OF DIRECT ORDERS. BUT I
DISOBEYED THE ORDERS BECAUSE I WAS SURE THE VIETCONG AND THE NORTH VIETNAMESE WERE
INFILTRATING ALONG THIS PARTICULAR RIVER, EVEN THOUGH NAVY INTELLIGENCE SAID THEY
WERE NOT. I THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE THE BEST WAY TO PROVE MY POINT. SEVERAL HOURS LATER,
WE HEARD NOISES COMING FROM DOWNRIVER. THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE HAD BEEN WARNED NOT
TO BE ON THE RIVERS AT NIGHT, SO WE COULD BE PRETTY DAMN SURE IT WAS THE ENEMY. IT WAS
A CONVOY OF SAMPANS. WHEN THEY DREW TO WITHIN 20 OR SO FEET OF OUR HIDING PLACE, WE
OPENED FIRE. WE TOOK SOME RETURN FIRE, BUT THEN THEY FLED LEAVING BEHIND SOME SAMPANS
LOADED WITH WEAPONS.

ADMIRAL:

ELMO'S UNAUTHORIZED BUT SUCCESSFUL AMBUSH DEMONSTRATED THAT THE
INTELLIGENCE WE RECEIVED GAVE US ONLY PART OF THE STORY. OUR AGENTS HAD IDENTIFIED THE
INFILTRATION ROUTES ALONG THE MAJOR RIVERS, BUT THE VIETCONG AND THE NORTH VIETNAMESE
WERE CLEVER ENOUGH TO SWITCH TO LESSER ROUTES. LARGELY AS A RESULT OF ELMO'S AMBUSH,
I ORDERED OUR RIVER BOATS INTO THE MOUTHS OF THE SMALLER CANALS AND CREEKS.

Posted by: ter0 [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 11, 2004 09:51 PM

Here's another entry for your comprehensive "Kerry in Cambodia" reference list.

Commenter "Ripper" at JustOneMinute researched this and posted here. (scroll down til you see Posted by: Ripper | August 10, 2004 09:37 AM)


The gist of it is a copy of the cover and introductory page to Kerry's Senate report to the Committee on Foreign Relations on his 1991 Trip to Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam

here's the relevant part on page 1
"... During the war, military operations had carried me throughout many of the waterways and coast lines of southern Vietnam and even, occasionally, into Cambodia. "
Nothing earthshaking but still another specific reference.

Posted by: ter0 [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 11, 2004 11:07 PM

I was on the staff of Adm. Zumwalt from April - September 1968. I remember the flap that Army LCU made when it strayed into Cambodia as a result of poor navigation. At that time, Cambodia was a neutral country under Prince Sianouk. There would have been covert operations there, but it was absolutely forbidden for any of our Navy boats to go up in there because of the political ramifications if caught. Any CIA or other covert operators would have gone into Cambodia in a "deniable" way (like a sampan or water taxi, or "civilian" (Air America) aircraft. A Swiftboat would have been an obvious provocation. Upon leaving the staff in September, I transferred out to the YRBM-18. This was a support platform for PBR patrol boats that was moved up to the Vam Co rivers in the so-called Parrot's Beak area on the border with Cambodia. This was at the same time that Kerry was in country. Some of the Vam CO Tay river our boats patrolled was the actual border. We were strictly forbidden to enter Cambodia, and in that stretch of water, the boats needed to hug the Vietnam side to avoid incidents. As for the Admiral's son, the Navy has always allowed people to grasp initiative - with the proviso that if you screw-up, you are hung out to dry. Lt. Zumwalt knew that if everything didn't turn out just perfectly for him, he could have been court martialed: yet he took the risk. Somehow I just can't envision Kerry taking the same risk. That is probably why Kerry's CO didn't court martial him for beaching his boat during the incident where he got the Silver Star. It was against standing orders and was really, really stupid; but since he and his men came back in one piece he was cut some slack.

Posted by: Bill [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 12, 2004 12:02 AM

Bill --

Thanks for the feedback.

With your knowledge of the conditions in March of 1969, what would you say the odds are that Kerry would have even been in a position to ferry CIA or arms up to the Cambodian border if he had the will to do so?

Posted by: ter0 [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 12, 2004 11:45 AM

This shows that Kerry is either a liar or a traitor (or both). For one thing, if he was involved in black ops, then shame on him for discussing them in a public forum. If not, he is a liar.

When one considers his "confessions" of war crimes before the Senate, he is either a war criminal or a liar.

If he was telling the truth, then he's a war criminal and has absolutely no moral authority to pontificate over the Abu Gharaib scandals, which involved far lighter atrocities than those in which Kerry allegedly participated.

At any rate, I am more concerned about what he has done for the last 20 years, not his 4 months in Vietnam. If the military reflected Kerry's voting record, we would still be fighting with Vietnam-era weaponry (F-4s, A-10s, A-4s, F-100s, etc.). If the intelligence community reflected Kerry's CIA voting record, there would be little left of the CIA.

Posted by: KySharpshooter [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 12, 2004 02:57 PM

ter0,
I'd have to say that his chances of being in Cambodia on any actual mission (covert or otherwise) were essentially nil. Could he have strayed into Cambodia by accident? Well, at the time (xmas '68) he was supposedly around Sa Dec, which is one one of the main channels of the Mekong River. Going straight up the river, he would have run into the forces (on both sides) guarding the border. It would have been possible to get up there un-noticed by sneaking up one of the smaller rivers or creeks, but that would have been unusual for a Swiftboat to do. Because of their size, Swifts were usually employed in the larger canals and rivers. Another point that I haven't seen anyone bring up yet is that (despite Apocalypse Now) PBRs and Swiftboats almost always traveled in at least pairs for mutual support. If Kerry was in Cambodia, what other boat(s) were with him?

Posted by: Bill [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 12, 2004 06:35 PM

John Kerry is no liar. You must believe his Senate testimony when he says he committed war crimes.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release the records.

Posted by: M. Simon [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 12, 2004 08:20 PM

Thanks again Bill,

This is excellent insight. I sure hadn't heard about the boats patrolling in pairs and I guess I knew there was a size distinction between Swifts and PBRs. I also heard one of the Swift Boat Vets say the PBRs were jet boats and I remembered O'Neal say one of the swifts lost its screws when it hit a mine -- so I looked up the specs. It's obvious now why PBRs were used in the shallower water -- shorter, shallower draft, no props to get hung up. Very interesting.

Swift Boat Specs

Length: 50 feet 1.5 inches Beam: 13 feet 6.5 inches
Full load draft: Hull - 3 foot 10 inches, Skegs - 4 feet10 inches and Navigational - 5 feet10 inches
Engines: Two (2) General Motors 12V71"N" Detroit marine diesels; port model #7122-3000, starboard model #7122-7000, each equipped with two 4-71 blowers and rated at 480 horsepower, when using the N70 type injectors, SM-118 Hydraulic Marine Gear Clutch with 1.15:1 reduction gears and driving two counter-rotating screws.

PBR Specs

Length: 31 feet Beam: 10 feet 7 inches
Full load draft: Hull - 1 foot 10.5 inches
Engines: Two (2) 6V53N Detroit Diesel propulsion engines, rated at 216 horsepower, driving two waterjet pumps.

Posted by: ter0 [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 12, 2004 11:25 PM

SwiftBoats - Crew of six.
PBRs - Crew of four.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 13, 2004 09:58 AM

Here's some additional info about the patrol boats used in Vietnam. The Swiftboats were based on a civilian design used for offshore oil rig support in the Gulf of Mexico. The gun tub over the enclosed pilot house mounted twin .50 calibar machine guns. The after mount was an interesting over/under combination of a .50 calibar machine gun and an 81mm mortar. The mortar could be used for either indirect (high angle) fire, or direct fire (point it straight at the target like a rifle.) PBRs had twin .50s mounted in a tub on the foredeck. On the stern, there were considerable varations, depending on the boat. Back there cou could find an automatic or semi-automatic 40mm grenade launcher, 60mm mortar, and/or M60, 7.62mm machine gun. The PBRs came in two versions. The Mark I had a sloping foredeck and was the original version. The Mark II had a flat foredeck and was about 5 knots faster. The extra speed was critical for survival and once sufficient numbers of the Mark II got incountry, the Mark Is were usually operated in the less dangerous areas.

Posted by: Bill [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 13, 2004 09:17 PM

Thanks Bill, informative as usual --

For anyone reading this thread, there are links in my "Specs" post above (that may not be readily apparent on your browser) to more info on the Swifts and PBRs (no expertise claimed, just google searches) -- any additional or more useful links are appreciated.

To give context to Bill's info, here are some links to photos of the boats

Swift model -- ( I like the model since you can see the underhull and props)

Pair of Swifts in action --- Swift Boat Patroling the Song Cua Long near Seafloat

Swift vs PBR comparison images

PBR MkI -- PBR MKI out of Vinh Long, 1968, Div unknown.

PBRs with crew aboard -- Crew onboard for size perspective

Posted by: ter0 [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 14, 2004 11:06 AM

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