I utterly agree with the substance of the sentiments expressed, but I prefer a certain shift of emphasis by keeping in mind the historical context of war. Quite simply, every war has its atrocities. This does not diminish the evil of atrocities, it's simply a fact. It is well documented that allied soldiers, for example, often shot surrendering nazi soldiers after hard fought battles during WWII. You also have the case of the New York nazi sabateurs who were essentially executed for political, morale boosting purposes despite substantial evidence that several of the individuals were completely innocent of any intent to sabatage, and the fact that one of them actually traveled to FBI headquarters to reveal the related plot. Surely, these unjust occurrences are every bit as horrific as what happened to the Iraqis here. And they should not happen. But war is not the natural state of human life. The stresses of war inevitably lead to the degradation of civilized ways of thinking and behaving for a certain percenatage of combatants (and some of their political superiors). The real question is how to deal with atrocities in the context of the life or death battle that is war. Back in WWII, these events were not trumpeted by the media because everyone, including the media, kept in mind the fact that life or death was at issue, and that preserving the will to fight was essential to the getting back to a civilized state of existence. The media clearly does not understand that the same life or death question is at issue in Iraq, regardless of whether you think Iraq is a front in the war on terror. This is because the externalities of what happens in Iraq will either pacify the Islamic world and advance a period of cultural Renaissance in the Mideast, or the externalities will incite the Islamic world into further headlong clashes with the western world, ultimately resulting in a life or death struggle between billions of people. Even if you think that the war in Iraq made this clash of civilizations more likely, a life-loving person would certainly refrain from throwing gasoline on the fire. Moreover, an honest person cannot possibly think that, in the age of technological advancement and growing capacity for nations, groups and individuals to develop all manner of weapons of mass destruction, we could simply pull back from this confrontation without the battle following us home --especially after widely publishing these atrocities. Publicizing such atrocities in this overall context is obviously of such minimal value that it can only be seen as a manifestation of the nihilistic death wish of certain members of the media. WWII would have been lost if we had the same crew back then.

I have no interest in CBS fabrications. You claim that conservatives will say these pictures are made up. I have no idea if they are, but I suspect they were. I stopped watching T.V. years ago, but I know that very little on TV and NOTHING in the Arab media is TRUE. It is always anti-anything that decent humans can stomach.

Blaming all future attacks on what these idiots did is stupid Michelle.

You act as if the terrorists need some new excuse to attack us. That is not the case. They have been attacking us for many years without the excuse of bad American soldiers caught on tape.

These people will get what they deserve. There's no point in pretending that the terrorists don't already hate us enough to attack without this. Remember 9/11/01? I sure do. They didn't need any videotape of US soldiers acting like criminals to pull that one off.

The sooner you people realize this is a real war against a real enemy who wants us all dead, the sooner you realize we have to win. And we won't win by appeasing the enemy. We win by defeating them.

So no, this doesn't give the terrorists an excuse to bomb us all they want. That is pretty damn shortsighted.

That's not what I'm saying, Penosity - I'm saying that they will use this an excuse for future attacks - even if those attack were already planned.

bq. I will, in advance, blame the guilty soldiers for any terrorist attacks that happen here in the near future, just as I will blame them for any ambush or attack our troops suffer today. It doesn’t matter whether these attacks had already been planned; I am sure that many Arabs, looking at these photos today, will have a familiar phrase running through their heads today: Faster, please.

Trust me, I make no assumptions that they were planning on being peaceful with us until this came along - but they will throw this in our faces when we complain about their violent nature and their acts of terrorism.

he sooner you people realize this is a real war against a real enemy who wants us all dead, the sooner you realize we have to win. And we won’t win by appeasing the enemy. We win by defeating them.

I am well aware of the fact that this is a war and I certainly know who our enemy is - I've said it in countless other OpEds here.

However, this does not mean that we can just chalk up these acts to the nature of war; we have to show them that we are better than them by prosecuting the people who took part in the torture to the full extent of the law. In no way do I suggest appeasing the enemy - but I do suggest that we show them which side knows that torture and rape are not acceptable behaviors.

Its worth having a look at " The Anti-Idioitorian Rottweiler" blog at http://nicedoggie.net,
to addresss a couple of issues you've touched on.
Its a relatively far right blog yet they and most of their commenters are highly critical of the people involved.
I doubt many people seriously believe the pics are fakes, but on that same site there is a good example of what to watch out for. Go to the comments box for the post about the pictures, scroll down about 47 to 50 comments (a little under 3/4 of the way down) to a comment by "carine", in her post there is a link to a site that she uses to imply that the prisoners are raped as well, its a bunch of porno shots of soldiers raping women, mixed in with the real pics to make it look like they are all together, its not very well done but its a good example of why we shouldn't believe everything we see.

I want to come out in defence of the men and women now being dragged out and accused of being worse than concentration camp guards. These people have probably been under a lot of stress and deserve fair treatment and maybe more . The charges have not been proven yet. Harshly punish them and the morale of the entire armed forces will drop like a lead balloon. That will do more damage then making the enemy more angry. They actually need our support now more than ever. We have asked them to endure great stress in a combat environment where the enemy can leap out at you at any moment. A bomb could explode anytime. We have deliberately put them in harms way when we could instead have used high altitude bombing and war by proxy forces. These people are victims too. We need to look at this with a little perspective. What’s worse, humiliating a prisoner or dropping a really big bomb on a target known to have women and children close by? Which would you choose to do given the choice? I believe the latter is worse but we all know it happens and many believe it is necessary. So necessary cruelty is OK? We all know we transfer prisoners, or threaten to, to countries like Saudi Arabia where rules are a little different. What is our reaction to that? Usually just a chuckle. The West has gone way too soft.

Victims? I suppose you think that Palestians who blow up school buses are victims as well?

A 16 year old with a bomb belt? Yes I do believe they are victims too.

I will, in advance, blame the guilty soldiers for any terrorist attacks that happen here in the near future, just as I will blame them for any ambush or attack our troops suffer today.


This is what I called stupid, not the rest. You blame them because you want someone to blame. It's bullcrap and you know it. It's the same thing the 9/11 Commission is doing, looking for someone to point the finger at. The terrorists don't need excuses so don't make excuses for them.

Pen, do a a search on this site and read my other OpEds. You're preaching to the choir.

This post touches on an ongoing discussion with friends on both sides of the politcal spectrum since the situation in Iraq turned ugly.

Have a look at the electoral map of red and blue states. The urban, heavily populated states are all blue. Where are the high value terrorism targets?

Does anyone really believe those states will be spared because they are in opposition to current US policy?

There is a color we all have in common, we bleed red.

"I will, in advance, blame the guilty soldiers for any terrorist attacks that happen here in the near future, just as I will blame them for any ambush or attack our troops suffer today."

My analysis of this statement is that it is not stupid but hysterical.

I think that statement was supposed to be metaphorical.

"but I know that very little on TV and NOTHING in the Arab media is TRUE. "

except the photos

"but I know that very little on TV and NOTHING in the Arab media is TRUE. "

except the photos?

Or, how about hypothetical?

I do not accept or pay attention to propaganda photos (except to call them what they are). Do you?

In essence, I will wait for the military authorities to proceed as required there. Sensational photos from enemy sources are not proof of anything but their own anti-American agenda.

Anglo: >>defense of the men and women now being dragged out and accused of being worse than concentration camp guards.

Whoa! That's some defense; I haven't seen Western media use such a comparison or description of the alleged abuse.

How the hell do you make a connection between the myriad of unspeakable atrocities and genocide of millions of Jews and minorities in German concentration camps to the Iraqi prisoner abuse?

>>A 16 year old with a bomb belt? Yes I do believe they are victims too

You've obviously never been mugged or held up by a 16-yr old, I have and let me tell you he was not a child, or victim of circumstances, he was a stone-cold predator.

In Arab societies a 16 yr old male has been initiated into the culture as an adult and is seen as an adult. To call him a child would be a grievous insult. You cannot apply our cultural standards to the Middle East.

In fact your sensibilities as a westerner are being used in a most calculated way to justify killing non-combatants and deflect responsibility, you're being chumped.

>>Or, how about hypothetical?

If you believe that terrorists are not already among us, plans made and that we will not be attacked again you are living in a dream world.

I live in a targeted metro area where local government has routine drills, published disaster information and asked us join C.O.R.E. or other community based emergency organizations. We also can see and hear fighter jets in the air flying caps from time to time.

People like you will be shocked and dismayed, no doubt wondering what we did to ask for it.

Do you really think the American haters will not point to this incident as a reason? There must be a victim, whom is never a dead American unless it can be used politically to denounce the US.

You can continue to look at events through the neener-neener political viewer of partisanship or question a few of the the assumptions you've accepted as fact. Otherwise you may end up just as dead as the 16 yr old bomber with whom you have such empathy...and guess what? You will not be considered the victim.

There's a certain symmetry to that thought, isn't there?

Michele I'm tossing my coin in now, and I agree wholeheartedly with your post. The saying goes something like "One bad apple spoils the barrel".

I read this verse this morning because it happened to be the Epistle for the day - I think it appropo:

1 Peter, ii v. 11 - “Dearly beloved, I beseech you, as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourself from carnal desires, which war against the soul, having your conversation good among the Gentiles: that whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by the good works which they shall behold in you, glorify God in the day of visitation.”

The offenders have dishonoured us all by their actions. They would dishonour us all, even if the deeds remained a secret shared amongst 'friends'.

More than once I have decried atrocious and abhorent behavior by anyone claiming to be a 'good soldier'. There is such a thing, you know. That I feel shame for their reflection upon us all does me little good. We all have to feel that way.

Feste

I'm not sure I have 'empathy' with suicide bombers but it does appear to me that many are victims of bad advice. They have often been bullied and cajoled into doing it and in my book that makes them victims.
Dont get me wrong, I'm pretty hardcore, but I think judgement of our own troops should be reserved until a proper investigation and trial has been done. My feeling at the moment is that some of these troops are 'victims' of bad advice, bad peer pressure, bad command, bad training etc. I fear that some 20 year old (not much more than a child) will take the fall for this. We dont need hysterical outbursts like the above right now.

There also seems to be general revulsion over the sexual nature of the abuse, like it's much worse than summary execution. This is rather revealing and I note the extreme Right is especially vociferous in their condemnation. I'm sure that it would be ok to put a pistol to the head of a newly captured enemy and pull the hammer back in an attempt to gather some intel or have I been watching too many movies? Oh shocking. I honestly believed this was Effective Interrogation Techniques 101.

I remember the glorious MacArthur during the Korean conflict had a bit of bother with rioting prisoners. His solution? Flame throwers. For riot control? Wow, yet no one seemed to mind too much.

American people and especially the Right, have bought the idea that the US is a Knight in shining armour. There are a lot of good things about Western civilization but Iraq was not a direct threat to mainland USA. It was, however, a direct threat to our interests in the region.

Iraq was not a direct threat to mainland USA.

True enough, but:

Resolution 1441 et al. demonstrated that Saddam wanted to be a threat to our nation and the world.

State of the Union 2003 demonstrated why we weren't going to wait for that to happen.

Saddam was, in essence, a playground bully. Even after he had been reprimanded repeatedly, he demonstrated no interest in "playing nice" except as served his purpose of being a playground bully. Finally, he got expelled.

Anybody who says that Iraq wasn't a direct threat to mainland USA is missing the point, and most likely SUCKS at Chess.

I think anyone suprised by seeing these pictures is a bit naiive. War is a terrible, dehumanizing thing. Of course stuff like this will pop out when you unleash the power of full scale war. It has come out every single major war that has ever been recorded.

This should have been factored in the decision to go to war.

Never heard that the General used flame throwers on rioting prisoners in Korea....oh well the man was a genius. Put a stop to that rioting right quick I suppose.

Due process of law must prevail.

I tried to find a reference to the flamethrowing incident in some reputable literature. All I found was this:
http://www.kmike.com/TruceTent/ch11.htm

"While the Communists sat in judgment upon Dodd, Colson had the 38th Infantry Regiment reinforce the guards on all the compounds and had automatic weapons set up in pairs at strategic locations. He directed Lt. Col. William J. Kernan, commanding officer of the 38th, to prepare a plan for forcible entry into Compound 76, using tanks, flamethrowers, armored cars, .50-caliber multiple mounts, tear gas, riot guns, and the like, with a target date of 1000 on 10 May.53 "

It would appear that they did not need to use them in the end but they were prepared to. I think I got the original info from some documentary on the General but who knows which way the producers leaned.

Feste wrote:

How the hell do you make a connection between the myriad of unspeakable atrocities and genocide of millions of Jews and minorities in German concentration camps to the Iraqi prisoner abuse?

I drew that connection from this:
"'What happened is the worst atrocity in human history and the perpetrators must be brought to justice,' said Uwe Preini, a visiting German travel industry executive"

Coming from a German....a bit rich eh?

Gus and eric,

The fact that Iraq was NOT a threat to the west IS the point.

The Iraqi fiasco with the loss of 730 US service men and women and the murder of thousands innocent Iraqis was completely unnecessary.

The Bush administration should have used the US military might and resources to fight terrorism not to fuel it.

As a result of their dogma and incompetence the US and the world are a more dangerous place.

Even if the neocons in power genuinely believed (against common sense, History and advice from experts) that you could impose democracy on a people it does not excuse their blunder.

Naïvity and stupidity are no excuse.

Truth

There is no Truth in that hyperbole.

Our preemptive strike on Iraq was the best way to ensure there is never another 9/11 Commission. Even John Kerry stated on GMA that WMDs may yet be found (so much for "Bush Lied") in Iraq. He certainly felt threatened enough to vote for military action in Iraq - as apart of a majority in Congress.

You may be duped into believing that flies cause garbage by the Howard Dean and Johninum Kerry Circus, but it ain't so. The Islamo-facists hated us well before the Bush administration. They hate everyone who is different. France, you'll remember, opposed us and has had terror alerts based on very specific threats only a couple of months ago. Why threaten France for the actions of the US? See? Flies don't cause garbage.

I have seen "NeoCons" used by several leftists on this board. This phrase was coined to describe the Jews who supported President Bush. Are you limiting your comments only to those people? If so, why?

This country deserves the asskicking it has coming...so sit back and enjoy the ride, because we were due to be smacked off our high horse...Bush challenged them to "bring it on", and he CHOSE this war in Iraq. 70% of Americans supported invading Iraq, but of those only 10% had enough of an IQ to be able to find Iraq on the map...Our kids can't read, we can't take care of the elderly, let alone our other problems...BUT damnit, we sure know how to be #1 when it comes to bombing the hell out of someone...yeah,that's something we can still be proud of I guess. The world laughs at our ignorance and hypocrisy.

Why Glenn, you sound gleeful that the U.S. is supposedly getting what's coming to it. I suppose you think the 3,000 that died in the WTC got what they deserved too? And you claimed a number of "facts" without an iota of proof to back them up. Reference your claims or we'll assume you pulled those "facts" out of your butt.

Truth (*puke*): "The Iraqi fiasco with the loss of 730 US service men and women and the murder of thousands innocent Iraqis"

Fine, we'll send Saddam back and un-do all the damage we can. We'll make it just like it was before we went in. Then will you shut up, or will you find something else to carp on?

I thought so.

Torture? I hardly think that these pictures qualify. I've heard and seen many pledges undergoing almost identical challenges WILLINGLY to get into a fraternity. All of the situations depicted could very easily have been interrogation techniques. I didn't see anyone actually being harmed in any of them, I saw a lot of humiliation and mind-games. While that is hardly pleasant either, if it was done with a specific goal in mind, i.e. intel gathering, then there's nothing to bitch about.

Truth:
Speaking as an 'archaeocon', I can say that I feel much safer. At least we now know what isn't in Iraq. When you hold a knock-down kegger party (war on terror), you have it at somebody else's house and spare your own. Draining a swamp of terrorism is dirty, nasty work. Better to reduce the terror friendly house down the street (Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc.) to moonscape than wrecking your own neighborhood. Duh.

Islamic Fascists don't recognize national borders, by the way, so 'going after Iraq' is really an unimportant detail. We are in a war on terrorism. We may have to go after Detroit someday soon. Because of the WAR ON TERROR.

Glenn McDonald:

You sound like a socialist. Why not leave this horrible country before it gets its ass kicked and all of the popular nations hate us? Canada has very liberal immigration policies, I hear.

You know, there are some lefties posting here that would only understand how well Bush and our military have done and their own lack of intelligence if Uday was feeding them to his chipper. For others with vacant brainpans (like x and Truth and Typhonus) even that wouldn't work.

Give that f**ked up place back to Saddam. He's going to get it back sooner or later anyway.

...this country has the asskicking that it has coming...

How ignorant can a person possibly get? No, you are not ignorant. You are living in outer apace somewhere.

Torture? Lets talk torture! Torture is cutting a persons ear off. Torture is cutting a persons hand off. Torture is cutting a mans tongue out. Torture is throwing a man from a 30 foot building. Torture is deleviering the charred remaiins of a husband to his wife.

Torture is delievering a mans head to his wife. Torture is raping young teen and pre-teen girls. Torture is killing in front of those very girls eyes, the baby they just gave birth to. Torture is gassing people to death. Torture is laying power lines though the marshes of Iraq. Torture is flipping the switch that sends electricity through those power lines killig hundres of Shiea. I could go on and on and on.

It would be a waste of my time. I'll simply say this, "abused Iraqis is a far cry from torture". Its a far cry from burning and stringing people up like animals for the world to see. Abuse is a far cry from dragging the body of a person through the streets as the killer fires an AK-47 into the air proclaiming that God is Great.

We invite torture into our very homes. We have been doing so for years. We sit and watch as people are slashed, beaten, and killed. Its only a movie as many say. I say that we are reaping what we have sown. Look out in society. Look very closely and dilgently. You will find some of the most twisted minded people on earth. And they are here in the U.S.

Many americans have developed some of the most perverted minds on earth. They were developed gleefully and with great anziety. They are some of the most coldest hearts to have ever existed. They have no morals. They can't get though the day without molesting and raping young children. It is absolutely appaling. Others can't get through the day without terrifying and putting women into the world of bondage. Their depravity has no limits. No bounds. And we wonder why men and women wearing the uniform would commit abuse upon others.

Its very simple. Of all the good men and women in uniform, some of the depravity of America has infiltrated our Armed Forces. No amount of teaching can stop depravity when depravity is allowed to flouirsh. It was the fate of Babylon, Greece, Persia, Rome, and it will be Americas fate. Unless America comes to its senses and understands the future that awaits it. Unless America says that enough is enough. Unless American leaders rise up and shout at the top of their lungs that the 1st Admentment does not cover materials sold in America that actuallty teachs and inspires twisted minds to commit despicable acts against children and the women of America. And yes, you can include men. The twisted materials being purchased in America will only lead to a much more twisted society.

Why are such twisted materialsl sold? They are sold to make money and in hopes that the next generation will be more twisted thereby insuring profits. We now live in a world where money is above all things of importance. It is a sad day.

i love your spach

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