That's only 1300 troops they got rid of. I bet Poland will make up the difference. Back to your caves, scum!

Tracks, its not the 1300 troops that matter. Its the moral support. And the fact that the Spanish sent a message to AQ: The West is ready to cave in. Just bomb us before election time and we will fold. As a LGFer said:

Bomb the Vote!

Spain has troops in Iraq? And Poland?! But.. unilateral?? What..

Im confused.

Oh, and congradulations to Spain by the way.

In a space of a 24 hour election cycle Spain has amazingly jumped from a 'piddly little country' and joke of an ally in our unilteral war in Iraq to our most critical ally in Europe if not the world. Watch out France! There's a new player in town. If Kerry gets elected its gonna be a close contest over whos rubber stamp will be more important in our foriegn policy, Jaques Chirac or Jose Zapatero.

oh yes, those terrorists absolutely forced the people of spain to vote their conservative leaders out of office!

get real.

VICTORY FOR PEACE LOVERS EVERYWHERE!

Not forced, scared. It doesnt bother you at all that this will be tried again to influence another election?

No Mark, apparantly it doesn't bother him at all. I'm guessing that he wants it to happen again.

Get ready for WWIII. Neville Chamberlain tried placating Hitler in WWII and now we see the same circumstances in Spain today. The Spanish want to placate AQ. Little do they know that their votes have just confirmed the weakness of the West.

From what I was hearing on NPR, one guy they interviewed said the vote was a reaction to the former gov't almost hysterical insistance that ETA was behind the bombing, even when things began coming out to the contrary -- he and others interviewed said they didn't like feeling like they were being lied to. Another guy said he felt the previous admin was trying to make political points off the tragedy. One guy they interviewed said if the previous folks had been straight up with the Spanish voters (i.e., could be ETA, could be AQ, could be both, we just don't know yet), he would have voted for the conservatives, instead of changing his vote.

yes, those terrorists absolutely forced the people of spain to vote their conservative leaders out of office!

get real.

VICTORY FOR PEACE LOVERS EVERYWHERE!

Posted by: x at March 15, 2004 12:15 PM
**************************************************************
Yes the world is never short of Neville Chamberlains
But then it also has a very Patrick Henrys

"Gentlemen
may cry, Peace, Peace--but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! ... "

and Samuel Adamses

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

X

You are a moral pygmy. You mention "Victory" and "Peace" when 200 people have been killed. Like somehow that action brought "Victory" and "Peace". Expect a lot more "Victory" and "Peace" at the hands of the bombers is all I can say.

You are the enemy X and one day you and your like will be stoped.

that's awfully funny, coming from someone who has picked a moniker of an animal that -- when left to its own devices -- will eat its own shit.

x, you're a troll, and it is absolutely disgustiing that you think the murder of two hundred Spaniards is a victory for "peace'.

Yes, Al Qaeda will be at peace with you, when they convert you or kill you--and that seems to be just fine with you.

Oh wait, they've been killing Muslims too. Well, I guess you can have peace when you're dead then.

Ha Ha X, hit a raw nerve did I? Compared to you, a slimy, scared, morally confused, self loathing apologist for terror I would rather be a Dog anyday.

You frankly disgust me.

..just wondering what the

"x" stands for.

Michele, and the rest of you, you know who you are.

We will see victory, we will see defeat.

We lost this one.

This loss might cost us even more losses.

Yeah, getting stabbed in the back by a supposed ally, in such a despicable show of pure cowardice hurts even worse than losing one to the real bad guys, but no matter how you cut it, we only have two choices.

We quit or we say fuck it and drive on.

I know what I'm going to do. I know what you all are going to do. Only question left is how we are going to do it.

Seems to me that the best way to handle taking a shot in the chops is to smile and ask if that's the best they got to give.

Because when you get right down to it, we aren't giving up one ounce of combat power.

All we lost today was a supposed friend telling us we were right.

When you look at Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, do you really need anyone else to tell you what to think about them?

Because of the proximity of the Madrid bombings and this election, history will record yesterday's election as the greatest single act of cowardice of all time.

They have to live with that, not us.

We have other business to attend to.

We have a war to fight.

Onward.

Set armchairs to stun.

[..just wondering what the “x” stands for.]

Let me venture...

X as in Malcom
X as in mark made when signing his welfare checks
X as in the 2 symbols that will replace our eyes if his memes are used to defend against the Islamofacists
X as in 'crement
X as in the mark by his name on the Islamofacist's list as they come door to door during the purge

It sure isn't the location of the treasure on any map

x as the siting recticle used on some scopes.

Jeffers, have you heard of the Pavlov method? If you repeat something a thousand times you are supposed to end up believing it. Well I have news for you: IT DOES NOT WORK!
You can repeat a thousand times that the US army is doing a good job in Iraq IT DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.
As a result of the US army action in Iraq, terrorism is spreading through out the world.
THE INVASION AND OCCUPATION OF IRAQ IS A DISASTER.
It is the best recruiting ground the bastards of Al Qaeda could have dreamt of.
The Spanish people saw the light and rejected their incompetent leaders.
IT IS TIME FOR US TO DO THE SAME!
You say you have a war to fight, I agree, a war in Afganistan (still), in Pakistan (where Bin Laden is said to reside), in Saudi Arabia (where Al Qaeda is being financed) but in Iraq?
The US army killed thousands of innocent civilians, 561 US soldiers have died. Thousands have been wounded. But the shareholders of Halliburton are getting even fatter.
IS THE SACRIFICE OF SO MANY LIVES FOR NO POSITIVE RESULT WORTH IT?
The army is not used to question the people at the top? They need to believe that what they are doing is worthwhile so they buy the army propaganda otherwise what is left for them?
BUT SOMETIMES ONE MUST HAVE THE COURAGE TO WAKE UP!

AWAKE

AWAKE: Just one point:

What the US Army is doing in Iraq has zero, nada, zilch to do with Islamic terrorism spreading through the world. It was spreading looooooong before we did a damn thing.

But somehow I doubt you care about historic reality. You're too bent on getting rid of GWB.

AWAKE: Are you seriously suggesting we invade Saudi Arabia? Sacking Mecca and Medina - that'd sure calm them down wouldn't it?

from a spanish e-mail:

As you will know well, Islamic terrorists blew four commuter trains in Madrid in the morning of March 11th, 2004, three days before general elections. This trains were packed with workers and students going to their jobs and classrooms, and covered the route known as "Corredor del Henares", a collection of working-class suburbs. They killed 201 people (up to today). There were 1,500 wounded. There're still dozens of people in critical or very grave state, and some of them could die. When the bombs exploded, two of the trains were very near to Atocha central station, one was stopped in El Pozo del Tío Raimundo station (a very combative, traditionally leftist, working-class district) where many people was killed in the platforms, and the last one was very near to Santa Eugenia station, another working-class area. The explosive was a kind of industrial dynamite made in Spain used in mining and widely exported known as Goma-2, trademark Eco. The bombs were hidden in handbags with ten to twelve kilos of Goma-2 each one, and they were triggered using inexpensive cell phones. Given the trains and platforms were packed with people (it was about 7.40 in the morning), they caused an immediate and pavorous carnage. It is said that the terrorists attempted to sweep the Atocha station where the four trains ended their route, going for an 11S-sized massacre (ed. note: 11 September, i.e. 9/11) by killing several thousand people in this main station of Madrid. Only the traditional lack of punctuality in Spanish commuter services avoided this barbarous result.

The behavior of the people was of utter heroism. I must say it, I didn't expect it and I'm very proud of my people now. When the victims in the trains started shouting "neighbours, neighbours, please help us!" to the surrounding buildings, hundreds of every age and sex rushed downstairs to help, even understanding that there were bombs and could be more. Commuter drivers in nearby roads stopped their cars and took the horribly mutilated and burnt woundeds to area hospitals even before the first ambulances arrived. Even some people who were inside the trains stayed to help others instead of fleeing! Please believe me when I tell you that the people of Madrid behave EXCEPTIONALLY and with rare bravery and solidarity in these very hard minutes. I use to be quite cynic, but this defies any cynicism. It was epic, heroic, I don't have words. Those thinking that the Spanish people is being coward should reconsider their opinion in the light of this.

After more than 30 years of ETA terrorism, many people thought at once that this murderers well known to the Spanish people had caused the massacre. But well-informed people immediately noticed it was a classical "Chechen attack", completely different of what ETA has done up to today and essentially identical to the Moscow subway attack several weeks ago. This caused some turmoil, specially when a pro-ETA spokesman made the point. Some minutes later, Interior (Security) Minister Angel Acebes declared openly that the authors were ETA and anyone denying it was a "miserable".

Now let me explain to you this turmoil. ETA is an independentist Basque terrorist group who declares itself "marxist-leninist". The Conservative government of José María Aznar has fought hard to combat it while avoiding any concession to moderate Basque nationalists, saying that the only possible way to manage the issue is "the hard one". Some weeks ago, a member of the Socialist / Nationalist coalition Government in Catalonia met ETA representatives and the Aznar goverment used this to proclaim that Socialist weren't hard enough against ETA since they shared government in Catalonia with a guy that spoke to terrorists. If the authors of the carnage were ETA, Aznar government would have been reinforced in their opinion that against those beasts, only force can solve the problem and the Socialists and their Nationalist friends were too weak to do it.

But if the authors were Islamic, a very different panorama arose. The opposition in Spain against Bush's war in Iraq was very important. I don't know if it reached 90% as it has been stated in this groups, but there surely was a wide majority against a conflict that common Spaniards didn't buy. There were massive demonstrations, with several million people in them, against the involvement of Spain in the war. In despite of this, José María Aznar government went to war with Bush and Blair. Many people went home thinking "this guy is involving us in a madmen's war that we don't want and will provoke bloody consequences". If Islamics blew the trains, it was a strong confirmation of this position, something that could only focus anger against Aznar's Government.

So, many people began to ask "who did it?", "not all of us are here, we lack 200" and "we want the truth before voting" already in the mammoth antiterrorist demonstrations on Friday. The Government stuck to the ETA hypothesis trying to avoid this probable electoral damage. They must have thought that using their massive media control they could cover it up for four days, until election's aftermath. Government-controlled public and private televisions, radios and newspapers broadcasted once and again "it was ETA", but each minute less people was buying it. It has been said that workers of some of this media were near to revolt because of the pressures to avoid the Islamic hypothesis (today, EFE Spanish state press agency workers' unions have asked for the immediate resignation of their boss because of this). But then, media not controlled by the Government started broadcasting the Islamic hypothesis and how the controlled media were manipulating the whole issue. In a matter of hours, Spain was bipolarized, with thousands seeking information in Internet and sending it via SMS to their friends. IMHO, the Government went mad and commited suicide in this moment. They agreed there were "Islamic clues" but said once and again it was ETA although the mass crime was claimed three times by Al-Qaeda and there were several tapes (two or three, still unknown) with Islamic messages claiming "Operation Trains of Death" in Madrid and threatening "Smoke of Death" in Italy and "Winds of Death" in the USA. Millions began to think they were being lied, with the blood of 200 Spaniards still warm. SMS messages with the truth spreaded very quickly (I received about 50 from about 40 different sources). In workers' districts through the country, people began to protest beating pans in the windows and shouting "they make wars, we suffer them", "we are not puppets" and "Spain is not to be lied". Others demonstrated before Aznar's party offices in different cities singing "Liars, liars!" and "Culprits, culprits!". In Madrid, these demonstrations united over 3,000 people, probably many more according to the images seen on TV. When police started asking for ID's, they showed their ID cards to the international TV cameras deployed there shouting "Urdaci, look at my face!" (Urdaci is the information director in the channel 1 of Spanish public television, massively involved in the coverup). Sort of a lightweight civil revolt, as you can see. Nothing serious, but obviously damaging to the ruling party. As a last error, Mariano Rajoy (Government's party candidate, since Aznar was retiring) spoke on TV blaming these demos as "antidemocratic and illegal". For a Government widely perceived as too authoritary and non-negotiating, this sealed their fate.

And Sunday came, and it was election's day. I didn't see fear. I saw mourning. A strange feeling, believe me. Spaniards use to be very funny. People is continously laughing and making jokes about everything, specially the younger. Watching all that people lining up to vote without a laugh nor a smile was impressive. And there was something more in truckloads of eyes. Anger. Deep anger. No incidents.

Aznar-Rajoy's party lost about one million votes. Not much, it's true, given the situation. But three million voters arose essentially from disenchanted abstentionists to nail them. And almost all of these voters supported the Socialist Party, the main opposition group that had spoken openly against the Iraq war and was also denouncing the media manipulation. This inverted completely the results, where Rajoy had started as favorite. José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, not Mariano Rajoy, will be the next president of Spain.

What will happen now? First, don't get confused. Although named "Spanish Socialist Workers' Party", the Socialist Party is a center-left organization that during their past Government period (1982-1996) brought Spain in NATO and faced several general strikes because of their pro-Capitalist economic policy. So "centrist" was their policy, that a truly Socialist leftwing party called Izquierda Unida could appear around the Communist Party (libertarian eurocommunists, not the totalitary ones) and is continuously supported by hundreds of thousands of disenchanted ex-Socialists. Even more, Rodríguez Zapatero is a very moderate politician usually perceived as too soft as opposer to the Government.
But since he leaded the majoritary opposition group, angry voters perceived him as the best option to oust Aznar and Rajoy.

In despite of this, the Socialist Party knows that these three million additional voters who have taken them to the Government, plus their traditional eight million voters, have voted saying "hey, José Luis, disengage us from that mad Bush (Bush is widely perceived in Europe as an illiterate crazy cowboy) and his terrorism-bearing war, take us again to our natural place in Europe, don't tell us lies and please don't screw it up or you'll pay it in the next elections". If they don't comply, people is going to reclaim their votes. Not a comfortable position, I'm afraid. This isn't a "free-handed, do what you want" Government. They have won with a clear popular pressure and expectative. The first of them, Spanish occupation troops out of Iraq before July 1st, period.

Has Al-Qaeda voted in these elections? Yes, obviously yes. How could I, a voter, stop thinking in my killed and maimed people, young students, hard-working fathers and mothers, pretty college girls, fragile elders and even babies? Hey, they're my people. As a citizen, I have an obligation to them. But let me tell you that I honestly think that we voted not guided by fear, but guided by anger. In the critical hours after the attack, Aznar's Government confronted and bipolarized the Spanish people lying and manipulating even when the truth was alreday obvious for millions. This caused an automatic reaction in the low and middle classes thinking "they make wars against our opinion, then it's our blood who pays them, and furthermore they're lying us and insulting our deads and our intelligence". Not a good cocktail for a Government seeking re-election, I'm afraid. The result has been obvious. I think that if they had told the truth, they would have lost votes, but perhaps won the elections by a scarce majority. When they decided to lie the impossible, they committed suicide.

Sorry for my English if it sounds a bit strange, I can't practice it often.

With my best wishes of peace, freedom and (real) democracy to everyone, from Spain the Brave.

"Spain the Brave" - that is so sad.

ETA and Al Qaeda should be able to divide Spain up for themselves now. Goodbye Spain.

Yeah, giving in to terrorist demands stinks, it doesn't work, it only makes 'em more brazen...when Spaniards do cave.

But the same doesn't apply across the board. Hail to the Capitulator in Chief! (link)

You misunderestimate his stategery.

Awake, I'll readily admit that Iraq today offers terrorists more opportunities than Iraq ever did under Saddam Hussein.

Believe me, that is absolutely the very least of my worries.

The day Iraq or Iran ignites a high energy weapon is the day that the entire Middle East becomes a haven for terrorism that surpasses even Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Think Russia.

Think cold war.

Think four decades.

Add in annual 9/11's.

Add in annual oil embargoes.

Get a clue.

I am really fed up with lots of you guys.
To listen to you, as long as the Spanish were on Bush side they were great, now they are scum.

Most of you are really a bunch of sad guys.
You should try to stop looking at the world through the limited US perspective. There is a world out there, perhaps you should travel a bit more and not just to invade sovereign nations; it would broaden your minds.

To fail to question this administration motives in invading Iraq is one thing but to assume that every country in the world should work actively for US interests is at best naive, at worst stupid.

We are not the center of the universe. That attitude has its part of reponsibility in the 9/11 tragedy.
Most of the world sees us as the new Empire, bullying its way to advance its financial and political interests.

Enough!

AWAKE

"take us again to our natural place in Europe" ...your women will be veiled, your children ignorant and savage, your men lazy and powerless, like all muslim countries. You have started the death spiral of your sad and beaten little piece of the planet. maybe your great-great grandchildren will start to fight for democracy...if the future ruling mullahs will allow it...

People like AWAKE and x clearly believe that it is possible to reason with Al Qaeda and their friends. This is a ghastly error of judgement. They think that if we could just understand the root causes and changed our behaviour everything would be sweetness and light. They seriously misunderstand terrorist motivations and ambitions.

Were the Madrid bombings retaliation for Spain’s role in the invasion of Iraq? Sadly Spain brought the bombings upon itself. Al Qaeda could not fail to notice the large anti-war demonstrations that occurred in Madrid and Barcelona. When they saw that did the terrorists say “what a lot of nice people live in Spain”? No, they said, “ These people are weak.” And they were right, absolutely right. Spain was like the weak animal in the herd, lagging behind, just asking to be attacked by the predators.

This is how the terrorists think when they see the demonstrations. They know that a lot of our people have no understanding of history, are self centred, are anti-establishment, are amoral, are pacifist and they think to themselves, “they are weak, now is the time to attack, now is our best chance for success.” And they are correct in their analysis.

As always weakness attracts the predators. They actually admire and respect strength – I believe OBL has even said as much. The only way to deal with this scourge is to attack it aggressively and remorselessly and do it with a bit of enthusiasm. Demonstrating against it only encourages them – yes gives them the courage to strike. If the peace crowd only knew what contempt the terrorists hold for them, how they make them smile, how they give them hope, like lambs to the slaughter.

angloamerican

That was such an insightful and correct post. OBL said that paraphrasing "If you see a strong horse and a weak horse, everyone will like the strong horse". The left are selfish and extremely stupid. We could all still loose this. I have a daughter and I dont want her to be genitaly mutilated and told she is no better than a goat. If these fanatics get to our doors I suggest we opt for the "sea of glass" option and rain down Nukes on the whole middle east (after extracting the Israelies).

angloamerican

How true, how very true are your comments. It saddens me deeply that our own freedoms could be our own undoing. The anti-establishment crew are traitors - no more no less.

ASLEEP - 'To fail to question this administration motives in invading Iraq is one thing but to assume that every country in the world should work actively for US interests is at best naive, at worst stupid.' That sounds like something Kerry would say! Have you had your Heinz today? Flip? Or Flop? What's it gonna be?

I forgot. You dissed on both of them, didn't you? New Flip-Flops required. You got crap on both of them now, and it ain't washin' off.

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