Great article. Must read.

I read that last week. Excellent read.
Not for the first time I wonder why HE doesn't run for office. Then I remember... Being President is a sh!t job.

Just once I'd like to read something by Krauthammer that I did not agree with.

The guy is damn good.

i don't see his ideas as being compelling enough.

"At some point, you have to implant something, something organic and self-developing."

that is the very definition of a cancer, a group of cells which absolutely wipes out everything in its path. the danger of this 'democratic globalism' is that there is a great, great risk of completely eliminating indigenous civilizations and population characteristics. do we really need starbucks in tokyo, berlin, and now baghdad and kabul? how many native traditions will be lost if nike floods the clothing market in iraq, syria, and lebanon?

democracy is great. a true democracy (unlike the republic we live under) is arguably the most perfect form of government that we know of. but it takes time-- you cannot "inject" it like penicillin and hope that the infection goes away in a couple of days or a week. instead of planning our nation building and utilizing force on countries that don't bend to our will, why not take a more hands off approach and encourage change from within?

look at south africa for an example: an entire race of people were being oppressed by a select few in power. rather than invading, we encouraged dialog, and ultimately south africa is a much more pleasant place. it may not be perfect, but it is far better off today than it was during apartheid. sometimes a revolution doesn't need to be bloody.

///“At some point, you have to implant something, something organic and self-developing.”

that is the very definition of a cancer, a group of cells which absolutely wipes out everything in its path.///

Not Cancer. A vaccine. Cancer grows out of an already damaged system, x. What you are describing is what is happening now.

Look, x, I'll be civil, because this is the first intelligent thing that I've ever seen you post here. Like all powerful civilizations, what Krauthammer proposes has the power to be abused. However, the points he makes are valid. What you describe in the last sentence of your second paragraph is what we have been doing for 50 years. It hasn't worked. At what point will we say it fails? Watching and waiting is fine, for example, when there is no security threat, like the one you gave in South Africa. Further, South Africa, while horrendously racist, was still not a dictatorship. When voting rights etc, became universal for people of any color, they didn't create a new system of government, they used the one already in place. And again, South Africa was not in any way a threat to the US.

That is not the case in the Middle East.

The "cancer" as you put it, is Islamic fundamentalist fascism. New faces. Same old song we've heard plenty of times in the last century. We have shown that many of these dictators will destroy themselves and their citizens before giving up power. Liberty and freedom for individuals is always right, all the time. A significant portion of the world however, is denied that liberty by a group of murderous selfish men. That cannot be tolerated anymore, not only by the US, but by any free nation. Especially when doing so provides fertile breeding ground for the kind of thinking that will destroy us.

I have no clue why I ever bother arguing with x. Just letting him talk is so much more effective. See, its Starbucks and Nike that are the great evils of the world, not indigenous cultures like the Taliban. Typical multicultural crap. X, freedom is for everyone, liberty is for everyone, its not one choice of several. How can you look at the Taliban as it was or China or Syria and serioulsy make that argument. You shall know it by its fruits.

there you go again making assumptions and putting words in my mouth. apparently you'll never learn.

"Typical multicultural crap" sounds like the words of someone who cares absolutely nothing about the strengths of diversity. I'm going to guess that you're a middle-class white male, Mr. Buehner, who has never really seen the world. Maybe -- just maybe -- not everyone in the world wants to see the same recycled crap in their neck of the woods as you do in your local strip mall.

when i fly to tokyo, i don't want to go into mcdonalds. when i fly to london, the last thing on my mind is starbucks. are they evil? no, they're just doing what they do best: making as much money as they can. are they being good world citizens? probably not.

whatever happened to variety?

What ever happened to free choice? Would McDonalds be in Tokyo if they werent making money? So 5 million Japanese shouldnt have the right to choose McDonalds so Mr X can have a fufilling cultural experience? Fah. Typical elitist. The market is no good because it doesn do as you want. So if only you were in charge, things would be different. You know what we call that? Tyranny.

And another thing, dont go playing mr globe trotting world traveler on me. I have been around quite a bit, and at least I for one dont treat other peoples as backdrops for my personal cultural fufillment. Im not going to yell at the Parisian proleteriat because they choose Starbucks, nor am I going to pretend its Starbucks fault for selling them good coffee for a reasonable price. I think I'll let them figure it out for themselves thank you.

Mr. Krauthammer is painting lipstick on a pig. The pig is the rightwingideologue Pax Americana neverendingwar and empire agenda, and the lipstick is painting this pig with visionary neoimperialist concepts like "unipolar power", "American exceptionalism", "democratic globalism", and "commercial republic". It's an invidious lie.

All the pretty patriotic promises, partisan fictions, and meaningless hollow rhetoric are insidious attempts to mask the underlying and repugnant truth behind the Bush government tha is bent on, and pursuing empire, imperialism, colonialism, and tyranny. Masking imperialism as liberation does not alter the blood costly unrealizable end result.

America cannot impose democracy militariliy on any nation, and certainly not on Islam or the ME.

Truebelievers succumb to the Rove/Bush mindwarp convincing them that all the inside every Arab, or Muslim, or Gook, or terrorist is an American trying to get out. This simpleminded ideological delusion is nonsence and absurd.

Equally absurd is the fallacy that America is a commercial republic. Again the Rove/Bush mindwarp mesmerizes truebelievers into succumbing to the laughable fallacy of freemarkets and theoretical capitalism - when the grim reality is manipulation of markets by super powerful oligarchs, and crony capitalism.

Supremist America is much different that American supremecy.

Yes, we enjoy a glorious moment of technological, economic, and military superiority, - but 19 jihadist freaks with box cutters struck at the heart of America and changed the world forever, so our imagined grip on power illusory.

America must lead, not conquer. America must cooperate not dominate. America must use our moment as the worlds hyperpower to advance and entrench our strengths here at home, and inspire other nations and peoples through our efforts - not weaken and divide America by imposing partisan values militarily abroad. America must be the champion of peace, liberty, equality, and justice, - not a hunta of predatory, warmongering, tyrants, profiteers, crusaders, purticanical religious zealots and hypocrits imposing their retarded values militarily..

The divides are clear and present. We seek and glorify peace, - Bush and truebelievers seek and glorigy war. We defend and advance the essential rights, freedoms, protections, privaleges, and best interests of the people - all people, - Bush and truebeleivers defend and advance.the best interests of the super rich and mega corps. We want a strong secure, prosperous, free, and democratic America, - Bush and truebelievers want a supremist American empire and world domination by the Bush oligarchy.. We demand accountability from our leadership - Bush and truebelievers refuse and evade any accountability and imagine they are above and beyond the law.

More and more Americans are seeing through the myths and fictions surrounding, supporting, and cloaking the Bush government - and we want and intend to take our nation back.

Empire masked as "democratic globalism" remains empire, and is unsustainable economically and politcally, morally repugnant, and essentiall un-American.

We want democracy strengthened in America, not imposed on Iraq, or any other nation.

Right, concepts like freedom, liberty, those are just White Male Hetrosexual Christian things. Nobody else in the world wants that.

Nobody is glorifying war, and such charges are simply silly. Sometimes war is not only the last choice, but the only one available.

Tony's vaunting of "the essential rights, freedoms, protections, privaleges, and best interests of the people - all people" is nothing but a pile of horse maure, as he would rather see Saddam in power than lift a finger.

But then folks like Tony would rather not know about the mass graves in Iraq, the state's torture and rape rooms, children's prisons, execution by plastics shredder, and general lack of freedom elsewhere, than do a thing about it.

"I don't really like the Bush Doctrine, okay?

After 9-11, I thought we should confine our efforts to the Al Qaeda organization. Instead, Bush decided to condemn half the Middle East with his Axis of Evil speech and roll tanks into Iraq.

It bothered me. It still bothers me. But dammit, if you look at the patterns, it seems to be working. The Middle East thinks Bush is batshit crazy, and their governments are afraid of us. Do you get that? The bad guys are afraid of us, because against all logic and common sense, we went into Iraq and we took Saddam down. . . .

In 2001, New York was burning and we were afraid. Today, there are American flags flying in Baghdad and our enemies are afraid."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/michaelduff/103623.html

No comment necessary.

"the Bush incestuous truebelieving oligarchic cronyism that mindwarps will be----


WAPNER!!! WAPNER!!! TEN MINUTES TO WAPNER!!!

wapnerwapnerwapnerwapner....now NINE MINUTES and 51 seconds to WAPNER!!!...........

Oh wait....

BUSH IS ACCOUNTABLE
BUSH IS ACCOUNTABLE

***Squawwwwk***

Tony want a cracker! RawwwwwK

fwee-hoo

It is important to consider that there are universal human characteristics, which include a desire for freedom. All creatures instinctively prefer freedom, and humans are no exception.

So when Krauthammer talks about implanting something, it is not the idea of freedom that needs to be implanted. That is an instinct everyone has already.

What needs to be implanted is institutions that allow large numbers of humans to get along, while protecting that desired freedom.

There are many human inventions that were discovered only a few times but were then widely imitated, refined, expanded, and improved. Writing, for example, was invented probably only twice, once per hemisphere.

Why should democracy be any different?

Your disturbing comment Mark reveals exactly the flaw in the Bush doctrine. By deceptively morphing a just and necesary response to the mass murder of 9/11 into the far more expansive and overarching militay democratization of the ME and the insane delusions of the Pax Americana neverendingwar and empire agenda - the Bush government has lost all credibility and all legitimacy.

In the shortterm - mass murderers like Kaddafii may appease America to stay in power - but the seeds of seething hatred and animosity toward America are deeply rooted and will spawn all over the middle east, and it will only take a few committed freaks who manage to slither through the net to strike again at America.

Cutting off funding is the key. War only creates more enemies, more reasons to kill, more deep rooted and impassioned hate.

Bush and truebelievers think war is the answer - when in fact war is problem.

Why do we want American flags flying in Bagdhad? Are we colonizing Bagdhad? Are we adopting Iraq? Should not Iraqi flags being flying in Iraq, and American flags be flying in America?

Iraq did not attack America on 9/11 silly.

No nation, no State, no religion attacked America. Al Quaida attacked America. 19 jihadist mass murderers 15 of whom were Saudi nationals attacked America. and none of these freaks have any fear of Bush or American military power. They are religious fanatics eager who believe slaughtering infidels is the path to paradise.

We can do more damage to the jihadist mass murder gangs by cutting off the abundant fountains of funding flowing out of the House of Saud, and shutting down the wahabi maddrasses that teach 4 year old muslim children to kill Americans, Jews, and all infidels, - than any war occupatioin and nationbuilding enterprize willl ever accomplish.


You may support the 'batshit crazy" Bush government, - but we do not. Bush is fermenting and fomenting the spores of future enemies seething with hatred for America, and for good reason.


No one want Saddam in power, Iraq was not a situation where war was the "only option. There were many options available prior to the war. Again truebelievers rely on myth and fictions and fly from facts. America has the right and the capability of striking at, and rendering harmless any legitimate threat any where on earth, any time we please - but invading and occupying Iraq, failing to plan or account for the ensuing occupation and nationbuiliding process, intentionally cloak or radically miscalculating the cost and time frames - and deceiving the American people to justify the war - is conduct unbecoming, and a grotesque abuse of power that future Americans will burden and hazard for
decades.

You can regurgitate the Saddamisevil propaganda all you want. We have all read numerous times all the ghoulish details of Saddam's depraved regime. I will remind you however that when those mass graves were being filled with Kurds, Shi'a and Iranians, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush the elder turned a blind eye, and there was no concern from theright then.

Theright most certainly does glorify war. They worship war, revel in it, mass market it, even though few have actually participated in it, these chicken hawks are quick to focus on war as the excuse for all the misguided, ideological actions and agenda.

They wrap themselves in the flag and pimp warspeak mythologies, they parade around on air craft carriers and military bases like conquering hero's prematuring claiming mission accomplished for battle not yet won.

How often do you hear anyone in the Bush government speak of peace?

Imitating or adopting democracy is just - imposing democracy militarily is tyranny - not democracy.

Lastly, all these partisan evasions pretending to care about the poor, the tortured, the raped, and the murdered, - have no concern for the same treachery inflicted on North Koreans, Saudi Arabians, Iranians, Yemens, Pakistani's.

Hypocrits.

SQUAAWWWWWWWWWKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!

There is no loading in the red zone... Bush is an oligarch... beep.... The white zone is for loading and unloading only... Saddam was about to collapse.. beep.... the is no loading in the red zone... Bush is an oligarch... beep....

Brilliant retorts.

Try a MindMeld, Tony. You are utterly failing with LooseLogic.

The looselogic is born in your camp
- not mine.

Not brilliant, Tony, just amusing. Brilliant retorts, as you have proven over and over, are lost on you. Someone could respond to you with a comment about Siamese whores and you'd just end up hitting the randomizer button on your one original post and we'd still end up with an overly long post ending in "bushisaccountable" or "the cronys are mindwarping and incestuous"

Whatever. Squawk.

Tony My Camp? LOL. johnnymozart and I have not shared a Teepee, burned Sweetgrass, shared a campfire or passed the pipe betwixt us. Not that we couldn't do that, but neither of us is a source for LooseLogic. That's your game, not ours.

You wanna join the tribe of TrueBelievers? You gotta steal a Pony, first. All you've got so far is a DeadHorse.

I always begin to question my position when I find myself agreeing with Pat Buchanon. And im a conservative.

Mark LOL. Remind me about the gay 'union' thingy again, would you? I'm not getting off-thread here by any stretch, but Pat is prolly about 30 years older than either of us. My Dad would LOL if I couched my position as being Conservative, but I take everything that Pat says with a grain of salt as well. He does, however make some very valid points about our losses in the population game.

Tony: The war is working. That is probably the thing that is bugging you the most.

Talking of peace while someone is trying to kill you, is simply suicidal.

All your talk of truebelieverness comes across as psychological projection, rather than anything resembling reality.

And you may have a point about turning a blind eye for a lot of Saddam's atrocities. Which makes it all the more important for US to remove him and put a stop to it. So even if you were right about that, you are still wrong about the war.

As to "imposing democracy" I have to admit this is the funniest line I have ever heard. "Alright you guys. You guys are going to vote for your own government, elect your own leaders, write your own laws, whether you like it or not." Think just for a moment how this sounds to someone else, someone outside your skull. You sound completely silly with this line of reasoning.

al Qaeda is responsible for the attack of 9/11. Our national defense response should have been to the threat, not to removing Saddam. (given that Iraq was not instrumental in 9/11, which some will debate). Our actions have served to improve aQ's recruiting pitch, not diminish it. Qaddaffi is not recruiting the haters, small fry militant Muslims are. Our recruiting is in a slump.

For whatever reason (your choice...political screaming match), this country has committed nearly all its military will and strength in a country and region that is a perpetual quagmire. We are likely to be there for years, regardless of what happens re: turnover 6/30/04. We no longer have a highly mobile military; they are stuck in sand.

We have been buffooned from an intel POV.

Increase in enemy's recruitment
Decrease in ours
Overcommitment of military in quagmire
Laughing stock U.S. intel

all add up to a decrease in national defense capability

this happened on GWB's watch. He has failed the country militarily. We need leaders who can learn from these errors, not Bush, a shape-shifter who can't admit mistakes.

Couple of links related to previous post.

Recruiting concerns - link

Quagmire? - link

Also...the Evil Empire under Putin/Stalin is playing war games again to maintain strategic parity with U.S. link Putin said som

Of course you purposely ignore all the dead and captured Al Qaeda in Iraq. You might take into account that every suicide bomber that blows up in Baghdad is one less that would blow himself up elsewhere. Where? I have no idea, and I doubt you do either. Maybe Baltimore.

Mark,

I purposely wrote what i wrote. I didn't omit this idea on purpose. i agree that there are fewer aQ due to conditions you reference, and had not considered that previously.

The aQ loonies blowing themselves up could have effects both ways--fewer loonies, more guys who think it's cool and want to sign up for their trip to the virgins. On balance, it seems like it might aid in aQ recruitment.

What about the substance of what was written? Do you agree? Disagree? Does your point negate my conclusion?

A polite suggestion...you may want to read some of the posts urging me to tone it down. "Of course" and "purposely" are not accurate.

Tony,

Short comment. When you write "By deceptively morphing a just and necesary response to the mass murder of 9/11 into the far more expansive and overarching militay democratization of the ME and the insane delusions of the Pax Americana neverendingwar and empire agenda - the Bush government has lost all credibility and all legitimacy, " it is logically unsound because one of the premises is a fallacy.

If 9/11 is a mass murder, then Pearl harbor is a mass murder. Pearl Harbor was not a mass murder. Therefore, 9/11 was not a mass murder.

This was an act of war. Murder implies a tactical response by law enforcement. An act of war must not only be met tactically, but strategically.

Our tactical response was to attack Afghanistan's terrorist state and training camps and eliminate Al Qaeda and its leadership. Our strategic response was to fix the underlying problems in the Middle East. It is a far-reaching and extremely bold plan unequaled in history and can be argued against.

The problem that I see more than any other is a general lack of acceptance by foes of President Bush that we really are at war. This denial renders otherwise principled people into nothing more than petulant dissenters. Furthermore, it is dangerous. Whether or not you believe we are at war it can be assured that our enemies do.

An analogous problem is innercity crime. I am interested in what you would do if you were the mayor of say, Chicago, and gang violence--long tolerated so long as it was localized--started to spill over into the suburbs. Would only reacting tactically (arresting only those responsible) to the situation protect you in the long run, or would it not also be prudent to start tackling the root causes? That is what we are doing. Whether or not Bush's strategy is the right one is open to debate and I would love to hear your alternative, but whether or not we need a strategy cannot be considered a rational inquiry.

reliable source - Iraq is arguably the greatest strategic blunder in modern memory

link to equal opportunity offender - Reagan Navy Secretary

Getting shot up by Polish troops, detonating prematurely, and killing a bunch of innocent fellow Muslims will make people want to do it? Getting captured and shipped off to Guantanimo to rot will make people get on board? I dont buy it. There are a certain number of people in any population willing to do things like this. The faster we kill them off the better. Like Stonewall Jackson said, make sure you kill the brave ones first and the rest will run away.
Look at Israel, how much more provocation can you give and they still have a limited number of bombers. This whole theory of the Arab street rising up to martyr themselves is just that, theory. And by all accounts its having the useful sideeffect of making the Iraqis who keep getting blown up very angry with this foriegners.

As far as the points you made about recruitment, A.I've seen only mixed evidence of more AQ recruitment, I have huge doubts that even if its true it can make up for losing more than half of its leadership in the last two years plus having its funding hounded. Certainly we havent been inundated with attacks around the world, nor do they have any safe refuge to train anymore.
B.As to our recruitment, its par for the course that reenlistment would fall off. People go to war they feel they did their part, cant blame em. As far as us being too stretched, thats utterly overblown. We still have 2 divisions doing nothing in the Balkans, 2 more doing nothing in Korea when SK can defend itself. Another in Hawaii sunning itself. A marine division in Okinawa. Plus the units that fought last year have had enough time to refit if absolutely necessary. The real dirty secret is that we have barely even tapped the NG or reserves, we've been relying on the same handful of NG divisions for years because calling up others causes political headaches. Aside from the specialty units that have been activated, most of our reserve is untouched.
C.Laughing stock of intel. That didnt start with this war, and quite honestly if the CIA hadnt been humiliated publicly by the war the chances of it ever been about nil. At least now we have a chance to fix it.

Mark-

We (almost) cross posted.

Does Webb's take change your thinking (my 4:50 post)?

Carl:

"al Qaeda is responsible for the attack of 9/11. Our national defense response should have been to the threat, not to removing Saddam. (given that Iraq was not instrumental in 9/11, which some will debate). Our actions have served to improve aQ’s recruiting pitch, not diminish it. "

I distinctly remember Afghanistan being in there somewhere. As we speak we have many more Special Ops in Afghan country than in Iraq. Please explain how the 3rd ID would be useful in hunting Osama in the mountain passes and the anarchic northern regions of Pakistan.

I also remember that some 75% of Al Qaeda leaders are dead or captured. Furthermore, I also remember that letter from Zarqawi complaining that Iraqis were not being recruited.

While I tend to agree that many angry young Muslim men might be flying to Al Qaeda's banner, and that our fighting back has spurred this call to arms, I am not sure how this is an argument against fighting back. There will always be fanatics willing to fight for what they perceive is a just cause. We cannot stop that nor should we be concerned by it. We merely need to show these troubled young men that it is not only a lost cause, but an impossible cause. Inevitable defeat and humilation is not quite so attractive as spurious vainglory.

The biggest impact has not been in individual recruitment but in state recruitment. Name one government that has professed for Al Qaeda since we took out Afghanistan and Iraq. Name one that has even maintained their status quo support and has not either completely switched sides (Pakistan) or begun walking on egg shells (Syria).

If we dry up Al Qaeda's support, infrastructure, and resources, all those angry young men will be truly impotent. That is our plan.

Look, as I posted directly above, you can argue with our "strategery", but not against having one.

re: greatest strategic blunder.

Perhaps. Though we will not know until it is finished. That is as impossible to argue as me saying it was the greatest strategic success. We simply do not know. The success of strategy does not reveal itself until the tipping point. Therefore, anybody who makes such a claim, one way or the other, can be instantly disregarded. All we can say is that it was tactically successful in that we accomplished what has been US policy since 1998: the removal of Saddam.

We can only go on evidence. It seems to be working in some areas, yet you appear to be complaining that because invading Iraq did not end all the problems of the world, it was not worth fighting.

More likely is that Iraq will have some bad consequences. But are they worse than the status quo ante?

No Webb is wrong. He opposed the war before it began so I dont trust his judgement to begin with, unless he happened to know what none of us knew. He was also one of the ex-brass types who started shouting quagmire a week into the campaign (just like Wes Clark did), which also makes his judgement suspect in my eyes.

His thought process I disagree with. His facts are right, but his conclusions are wrong. Yes we attacked the 'wrong' target. Because the 'right' target is illusive. Instead, we did what military theory in fact dictates, when an enemy offers you 2 targets, you strike the 3rd. So we have drawn our quarry to us, and fight him on a field of our choosing instead of his.

"Therefore, the best warfare strategy is to attack the enemy's plans, next is to attack alliances, next is to attack the army, and the worst is to attack a walled city" Sun Tzu

We have hit the enemy where it hurt, understanding that the enemy is not 'Al Qaeda' but the entire network, the Mullahs, the fundraisers, the tyrants that make the Arab people desperate. We have conquered one ally and ruined our enemies plans of luring us into Pakistan. We have coopted Musharif and made him our ally. We have put Syria and Iran in a major bind with troops on their borders and suddenly internal unrest. We have gotten our troops out of Saudi Arabia and opened up a new oil market. We have 100,000 troops in the heart of the Middle East making every tyrant sweat. That is the heart of this strategy. We have attacked our enemies plans. As Clauswitz said, war is politics by other means. We have a political problem at the core. It is the tyranny and poverty that follows it. We have struck a mighty blow against tyranny, one that has the whole region ringing. Webb is wrong, we have chosen the true target.

One more thing. Lost in this Bush's War argument is any reference to Congress's vote to support military action and the UN's unanimous ratification of 1441. That nobody really believed we would follow through (Kerry's excuse for his vote, Saddam's stated belief) is only testament to the corrupt old ways of doing things. Kerry can go on all he wants about how he voted for military action to supply a threat of military action. That is how France behaves, not the US. Before, when a resolution was passed it was not worth the paper it was printed on.

Now they believe.

Mark,

"is wrong, we have chosen the true target."

A target they (the terrorists) cannot defend, and one I am sure they did not expect.

One other thing, I can provide a dozen military men who understand and support the strategy. It is a sound strategy, we can debate all day about whether its too risky or ineffective, or some other strategy would be more productive, but its beyond dispute that this is a strategy, a grand strategy as Napoleon would say, targetted to deal with our terrorist foes. Remember, in WW2, first we attacked north africa, then we attacked Italy, then we attacked France and Germany, and then we attacked Japan, half a world away that bombed us in the first place.

Excellent commentary cauthon, but I respectfully disagree. You succumb to the Rove/Bush mind warp claiming victory for wars not won, and battles not fought, and distorting and evading the facts to cloak the harsh reality and the Bush governments insipid advancement of the Pax Americana neverendingwar and empire agenda.

Japan was and is a nation, al Quaida is and remains a nationless mass murder gang and a multinational jihadist network. But I accept your point that the mass murder is somehow not contrued in the same legal constructs if the word and concept of "war" is applied.

Some can dispute the Rove/Bush disinformation pimping Iraqi involvement in 9/11, but there is no solid evidence to support this myth and fiction.

Afghanistan was a just and necessary mission - the Bush government failed to complete.

You fail to comprehend the enemy. Capturing or killing 75% of al Quaida top brass (a number some of us dispute) is a great and necessary accomplishment, and the Bush government is rightfully commended for these notable successes, - but the ugly reality remains, - that a single cell, or a few cells are capable of mass murder operations. Al Quaida is not so much a single organization, athough there is a mass murder gang and bin Laden is it's prophet - but it is more an idea, or an ideology, or an icon, a banner for the depraved primitive malignancy of jihadist islam.

Mysteriously - Bush "good friends" in the House of Saud abundantly fund, and lavishly nurture all the jihadist mass murder gangs directly or indirectly - and yet, the Saudi's are somehow shielded by the Bush government.

The Bush government spawned and is fueling the next generation of bin Ladens and jihadist mass murderers by attacking Iraq - which had nothing to do with al Quaida or 9/11, and whose people were not jihadist.

We all applaud and wholeheartedly unconditionally support hunting, capturing, or killing every single jihadist mass murderer and those that aid and abet them on the planet and question why the Saudi's specifically are favored and insulated by the Bush government - but those successes, and that failure has no relevence to the unjust unnecessary costly bloody war, and woefully misguided, pathetically poorly planned, radically miscalculated, and intentionally cloaked occupation and nationbuilding enterprize in Iraq.

The Iraq war, occupation, and nationbuilding enterprize has mistakenly and disproportionately diverted and misdirected focus and resources away from our real enemies who are funded by Saudi Arabia. .

Lastly the "mighty blow against tyranny" is another fallacy. What great enemy did we defeat? Iraq? Surely you jest? Iraq was a pathetically inferior adversary, and the "war" is not over.

Kadhaffi is suddenly reformed and forgiven for his crimes against humanity and remians the despot of Libya because the CIA busted his nuke programs? Khan is pardoned in Pakistan for selling nuclear weapons technology to Libya, Iran, North Korea, and who knows who?

Mighty blow my ass.

Bush struck a mighty blow for the bullies and the fundamentalists empowering military adventurism, tyranny and supremist ideology, by deceptively misdirecting focus and resources onto Iraq who posed no threat, and did not attack America - and away from our real enemies.

Do you not appreciate the precedent that is set?

I know "what's the difference", and theendsjustifythemeans, and Bush promises a greater good. Well the difference is truth, the ends do NOT justify the means, and if there is a greater good - it is far far away and will be enormously costly.

Truebelievers succumb to the Rove/Bush mind warp pimping pretty patriotic platitudes and promises of some future greater good - but the rest of the world and more Americans everyday see a deceptivly mass marketed costly bloody noendinsight devolving mess our children will burden and hazard for decades.

America has the right and duty to strike and eliminate any legitmate threat anywhere, anytime we please - but we do NOT have the right, nor can we in good conscience countanence the Bush oligarcy imposing a puppet government militarily on any soveriegn nation. Imperialism is tyranny, not democracy.

Capturing or killing jihadists is necessary - democratizing the ME militarily is a rightwingideologue delusion. There's a huge difference.

Snore. Sometimes I think there's an echo in here.

The echo sir reverberates in your chamber.

Tony:

"War only creates more enemies, more reasons to kill"

So this is why we have Japanese enemies that want to kill us? = Nope
So this is why we have German enemies that want to kill us? = Nope
So this is why we have Spanish enemies that want to kill us? = Nope
So this is why we have Confederate enemies that want to kill us? = Nope
So this is why we have British enemies that want to kill us? = Nope
So this is why we have Mexican enemies that want to kill us? = Nope
So this is why we have Vietnamese enemies that want to kill us? = Nope

Humm...

Ohhhh, I get it. Attacking our enemies might just piss them off. Humm, maybe we should just turn the other cheek, or in the spirit of Mel: just let them crucify us, or maybe we should just sit down and discuss it with the "stakeholders" (works so well in the PLO/Israeli situation and the UN Security Council), or maybe we can hide our collective heads in the sand and hope the problem just goes away.

Well, baby, this one ain't going away and it's best to face the fact and to take mess into their living room than in ours.

Max

Tony, on your "Chamber" link:

" "Iraq’s Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction" (the very title got it wrong) "

Unfortunately the author is spinning. Kay's testimony made it absolutely CLEAR that Saddam DID have WMD PROGRAMS right up to shock-n-awe...

Kay: "We have discovered hundreds of cases, based on both documents, physical evidence and the testimony of Iraqis, of activities that were prohibited..."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/28/kay.transcript/

"...the ISG group have made the following evidence as a part of their record that will be forthcoming: first, evidence of Saddam Hussein's intent to pursue WMD programs on a large scale; actual ongoing chemical and biological research programs; an active program to use the deadly chemical ricin as a weapon, a program that was interrupted only by the start of the war in March; and evidence of missile programs; and evidence that in all probability they were going to build those weapons to incorporate in the warheads..."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KAY401A.html

"We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/

Sooo, all in all, Iraq’s Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction IS a fitting title.

Max

quick question, is anybody know why AQ first attacked us?

I accept your point about war Max Darkside.

But you must accept that Iraq did not attack America.

- that Kay's reportage revealed intent, academic research, and prohibited activiies, but also clearly stated that Iraq had NO WMD, and no existing WMD capabilities.

- that ricin is not WMD

- that war should always be the last resort, when all diplomatic options have been exhausted, which was sure not the case with Iraq.

-that Saudi Arabia is the funding and nurturing tit for all our jihadist enemies.

- that old world constructs of war do not relate to 4th generation warfare realities we face today.


- that the wars you list with the exception of Viet Nam were necessary to secure the future of America, while Iraq posed no legitimate threat to anyone and certainly not America's future.

- and that the Iraq war was an unprecedented preemptive war prosecuted for political, not miltary reasons and interests.


You want to piss off our enemies which is fine and macho. Have at it. Capture or kill all of them. We all support striking our enemies with impunity, and eliminating every legitimate threat anywhere at any time, - but deceptively hurling the nation to a bloody costly war, and woefully misguided, radically miscalculated, and intentionally cloaked occupation and nationbuilding enterprize in Iraq against the wrong is neither justified, nor necessary, and will NOT deter our real enemies from attacking America again.

In fact the Iraq war will feed the and strengthen the cause of our malignant enemies for decades.

You are applying short-term, temporary, and delusional solutions - to long term problems.

The Pax Americana neverendingwar and empire agenda NOT a viable option.

- ///while Iraq posed no legitimate threat to anyone and certainly not America’s future.///

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously, Tony.

Despite the fact that noone, including none of the top intelligence agencies in the world argued or concluded this prior to the war, I'm glad you feel comfortable concluding this, despite all evidence to the contrary.

I, however, am not comfortable taking that kind of "cavalierrisk" with American security, so do not presume to speak for anyone but yourself.

"that ricin is not WMD"

Apparently another feature of the Tony Foresta universe. Its so interesting to find out how the physics of the plane of existance work. Too bad its ever shifting and inconsistant. Somebody ought to do a psych paper on it, fascinating stuff.

Ricin is a natural toxin born of castor beans, and not weaponized threat that constitutes WMD. Even weaponized ricin has a relatively low lethality rate. And I will remind you again that NO WMD has yet been unearthed in Iraq. NO WMD has been found in Iraq.

The worlds intelligence was far more balanced and reasoned in assessing Iraq - and as Tenet clearly stated recently, and subsequent events have proven - there was no imminent threat from Iraq.

Iraq was well contained, and American jets smoked Iraqi missile batteries, radar installations, and targets of opportunity with impunity, and with nary a scratch for ten years.

While all the world's intelligence held no illusions about Saddam's intent, depravity, and potential for menace, - the worlds' intelligence agencies did not assess Iraq as an existing, imminent, or immediate threat. You confuse the raw, cherrypicked, uncorroborated, and NOT credible deceptions pimped by the rightwingideologues in the OSP with actual intelligence assessments.

All Saddam's programs were distant unrealized theoretical possibilities of future threats.

Deserving close scrutiny and vigilance, - but no immediate threat.

Tony, Im going to let you in on something that could change your life. You might want to ponder it:

Just because you believe something, doesnt make it true.

Its called self introspection. It requires you to question your own beliefs against the facts. Not just once in a while, all the time. If practiced regularly, it leads to a host of benefits. Like not living in your own disturbed little universe where you know the truth and everyone else is part of a grand conspiracy. Humility is a possible side effect. Good luck.

Agreed Mark. Follow your own advise, and I will as well and let's see what facts are revealed. I am open to introspection, and want the truth, just like you..

Do you wish to address any specific issue or claim?

Thank you, no. We've tried that path already. You have proved yourself quite unwilling to accept any facts that dont fit neatly into your preconceptions, no matter how well documented by how many media sources. I cant prove negatives, and I cant reason someone out of something they were never reasoned into in the first place. So you will forgive me if I dont waste my time any further.

What are you talking about Mark? What facts? What documentation? What media sources? No one can prove negative of course, - but you cannot and do not defend Bush on the merits, since there is nothing substantive to stand on.

who cares, american govt. has indeed done something wrong,thta's why the rest of the world hate us.

Thanks for signing in, . Now you can comment. (Click here should you choose to sign out.)

As you post your comment, please mind our simple comment policy: we welcome all perspectives, but require that comments be both civil and respectful. We also ask that you avoid the extensive use of profanity, racist terms (neither of which we consider civil or respectful), and other boorish language.

We reserve the right to delete any comment, and to prohibit you from commenting on this site, if we feel you have broached this policy. As a courtesy, we will first send you an email noting a violation so you understand the boundaries. This will occur only once, however, and should we ban you from our comment forums we expect that ban to be permanent.

We also will frown upon those who suggest that we ban other individuals for voicing unpopular opinions, should those opinions be voiced in a civil and respectful manner. The point of our comment threads is to provide a forum for spirited though civil and respectful discourse … it is not to provide a forum in which everyone will agree with your point of view.

If you can live by these rules, welcome aboard. If not, then we’re sorry it didn’t work out, and thanks for visiting The Command Post.

URL:
Remember me? YesNo

Comments: