This story was always a nasty hack job. Even the Nyt and Washington Post agreed that there was no substance to it (although they were happy to take swipes at the fact that Bush got a 'soft, cushy' alternative to Vietnam. Flying jet planes never took me as particularly safe, not to mention that his fighter wing was active in Vietnam when he joined up.
The people pushing the deserter story were the classic conspiratorialists. I argued with several, and they kept going back to the indictment of General Turnipseed that he would have known had a flyer from Texas been under him. Except that Bush's flying days were over by then, and he was fufilling his obligations doing other odd jobs working around the schedule of the senate campaign he was attached to (all very legal and not unusual). The whole thing is a smear job, Bush put in more hours than 95% of national guardsman due to the demands of flight training alone. Not to mention risking his life in a high performance jet (anyone who has so much as rode shotgun in one will tell you just how 'chicken' you'd have to be to fly one for a living).

I might also add that while Al Gore was prancing around Saigon with a tape recorder and camera, Bush 'the deserter' was flying a 30,000 pound aircraft as 800 miles an hour, learning complex high performance flight manuevers meant to shoot down Russian bombers. He served 11 months in full time service learning to fly his first year of training alone (none of the weekend warrior stuff). He ended his career with the equivalent of 24 months of active duty, your average NG stint not called to active duty might top out at about 15.

I can't think of a job that would be more exciting than flying a fighter jet. Of course he stayed in longer. I would too.

Yeah, join the National Guard to avoid getting killed in Vietnam, then signing up for one of the most hazardous jobs in the service. NOT. Of course, the lefties will say that just proves that W is a dummy (sigh.)

I read in Aviation History that the plane he flew (F-102 or 104?) was a '70's version of "The Ensign Eliminator" i.e. if you goofed it would kill you, dead.

I gave the issue away, so anyone who can help with a backup... thanks.

The F-104 Starfighter (I'm not sure Bush flew the Delta Dart F-102 for long) had a well-deserved reputation as "The Widowmaker". It had the flight envelope of a dart and without both engines burning, it more closely resembled a brick. Landings were particularly tricky and this is where most guys augered in. The Starfighter had tiny wings and a high T-tail that worked great at altitude (where it was to intercept the interloping Bear or Bison), but gettting there was half the fun.

It was extremely unforgiving. The F-102, on the other hand, had plenty of lift, but it was a bit of a dog. Had a pretty good top speed for an interceptor but had a tendency to go into a flat spin if you looked at it cross-eyed. One time a pilot ejected from his flat spin, the force of which blew the nose down (and out of the spin). The plane continued on its own like a paper airplane and landed pretty much intact. Not bad for a jet fighter.

Every non-foaming-at-the-mouth-type already admits in print there's nothing to the allegations of 'deserter' and the democrats will be well-advised to drop this one and Michael Moore at the next Jenny Craig. This could seriously backfire in their faces. There are bigger fish to fry, if they are smart.

Big IF.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

" his fighter wing was active in Vietnam when he joined up."

Probably why he ticked the 'do not volunteer' for foreign service box when he was jumped to the front of the queue for this dangerous service. (They flew at night - scaary!). Here is a statistic that puts Bush's perilous service into perspective. No. of hostile aircraft / AA weapons deployed in Texas during Bush's tour of duty - Zero.

Bush jumped the queue for TANG, learned to fly on Uncle Sam's dime and spent years pissing around flying in formation while the US was crying out for trained fighter pilots in Vietnam. Anyone know how many of the 50000 plus American casualties were pilots? Not only that, but when mandatory drug tests were introduced, he failed to show up. We know this because he refuses to release his records. The evidence available does not confirm his service after the testing was introduced.

Still, at least he didn't 'prance around' in a warzone. He valiantly defended Alabama from Russian bombers - or did he? We have only his word for that.

Eight, pretty sure he just flew the F-102.


I also like that, at least offline, the vast majority of people I hear talking about this issue are people who by and large hate the military anyway.

No, dirk strom, there is NOT only Bush's word that he served in the Texas Air National Guard and had you bothered to read anything about it you would know that.

We could talk about Clinton never showing up for his ROTC service, but that wouldn't be fair would it?

Hang on,

Landings were particularly tricky, but one time some guy ejected and the plane landed itself? That's having your cake and eating it, mate.

There is nothing to the desertion charge, I'll agree. The evidence states Bush was AWOL. Why won't he release his records? The supine media gave him a pass in 2000. Now he's sent 500+ Americans to their deaths and blown $100bn+ tax dollars, this question might just be asked. If anything is going to backfire in someone's face, it's Bush's aircraft carrier stunt. Why wait till 'Mission Accomplished' to demonstrate his prowess? Why not do it when his country was at war?

Gabriel,

Once again with the 'you haven't bothered to read anything' jibe. It didn't wash with April Glaspie or US support for Saddam and it won't with this. Maybe you could direct me to this unread evidence? I'm willing to learn. We could talk about Clinton if you like, but since I'm willing to confirm he dodged the draft there's no point. So...

Given that I've seen the evidence, and am not scoring 'party points', what's your argument? If you want to paint this as an Us v Them, I'll give you some help. John Kerry flung his medals... no wait, he earned medals! He's a hero! Hang on... ah, back on track. Three of his medals were Purple Hearts. Surpassing even the bounds of Wildean scorn, the traitor got himself wounded three times. Plus he married an heiress, so he has a large unearned fortu... oh dear, back off track.

I tried.

No it was not the Dart. I don't do numbers, but names I recall.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/f102.htm

F-102 Delta Dagger it was. T-8 any more background.


Dirk,

My father flew, saw no combat, volunteered for none. Is he a coward?

He also recalls that they killed a guy every day training (earlier era than Bush). So can he keep his pension, master?

Now I see the Dagger got updated into the F-106 Dart. But the site on Bush said F-102. So it may have been both.

jones,

I don't know if your father is a coward. I'll assume he isn't. Generous, no?

Did your father get bumped to the head of the queue for domestic service while others were drafted overseas, often to their deaths? Was his father a Congressman? Did your father have his photo taken several times with the apparently starstruck CO of his unit? Did he specifically state he didn't wanna go overseas and defend his countrymen? Did he fail to report for duty for months? Did he therefore go AWOL?

I don't want to badmouth your father. But if I could answer yes to all those questions I could do so with a clear conscience.

Pip pip.

dirk, It was the F-104 that would kill you, the F-102 that practically landed by itself.

But you've had to read what I wrote carefully before you commented, wouldn't you? :)

jones - You're right about the model name. I got my Delta's reversed.

torpedo_eight

I'm well aware of what you wrote, and in which plane Bush whiled away the troublesome Vietnam years. I just wanted you to say Bush spent his Vietnam years flying a plane that could land itself. Which you now have done.

Pip pip.

George W Bush was perhaps the greatest pilot if I have ever seen. I saw him him single-handedly drag several worthless Democrats from the stinking Texas death beach and save their lives from the unpatriotic machine-gun fire of the non-righteous.

Of course I made that up. I was bored. But just imagine if I'd imagined some GWB action. People would laugh. (Would have laughed, would potentially have wanted to ... I can't keep up with the modern future imperfect).

However, (tense fans update me), noone has denied that George Walker Bush failed to serve his pussy-ass National Guard commitment after mandatory drug-testing was introduced. If the C-in-C would only cite moral superiority - that would be enough. The media gave him a pass 4 years ago, they'll suck his cowardly ass this time round. Release the records, George. You have nothing to hide. A lantern-jawed hypocrite - big whoop. Release the records. Let us all see how heroic you were.

Word for word, Dirk, what did April tell Saddam?

Look it up and post it.

I'll wait.

Dirk-
Care to back up your statement about GWB
leaving the Guard to avoid drug testing with some facts?

Considering that the military didn't institute
drug testing until 1981 I believe you'll have
a hard time with that one...but then again dealing strictly with facts doesn't seem to be your strong suit. Slinging s*&t around is more your forte.

People constantly underestimate Bush's intelligence and political expertise. Time and time again he sets traps for left wingers, especially the media, just by keeping his mouth shut. He knows that sooner or later, a democrat or major newspaper will make an accusation of some sort against him without all the facts - which he has in his possession. At the moment people are questioning his credibility on the basis that no WMDs have been located in Iraq - based on the evidence of Kay, who is a long time Bush ally. No why would Kay want to harm Bush ? He doesn't, but he can draw deocracts into a trap.

Bush will allow the democrats to become more and more confident of their belief, then he'll allow the hysteria to be totally whipped up by the media - Annan, the French etc will start pontificating again and then - you watch Bush make utter fools of them, which he has done on almost any issue you care to name.

Once again, prepare yourselves to be surprised by this master politician in the coming months.

Dirk,

You insult the National Guard too? It is honorable service?

Even if a plane "can land itself" it doesn't mean the pilot won't be scrambled.

Your story about his not putting in the time is bogus as your drug testing. Haven't you heard of flex time? Skip here, make up there. It was all permitted, he had the points to leave. Your accusations don't hold up.

Also, please note that the charges of Nepotism are false. When Bush had a DUI, there was no attempt to "fix" anthing. All Bushes were polite and cooperative.

Your credibility sufferes.

I will be gone for a few days, I hope you improve during that time.

It is honorable service.

Dirk, what have you ever done as dangerous as flying a jet fighter?

"Dirk, what have you ever done as dangerous as flying a jet fighter?"

I suspect that Dirk has done something at least as dangerous as piloting a computer keyboard. Cracked fingernails and carpal tunnel syndrome and all that.

Pip pip!

MG

The National Guard is an honorable service.

Dirk, if you have ANY HONOR or DECENCY
at all, admit to that.

George H.W. Bush was shot down in
WW II. Bob Dole carries his shredded
left arm from Anzio to this day.

They lost to Draft-Doger Clinton.

GW Bush was in the military. You do
not believe he was honorable.

Families with a military history, like
my own, can distinguish between
Truth and Fiction. 3 Purple hearts for
Kerry. Interesting fiction, perhaps.
Perhaps not.

I will let others more qualified speak
to that issue and they have on the
Vietnam Veterans Against the War
thread.

One Veteran spoke of Kerry's 2 days
and walking around "wounds" and his
brother with 3 Purple Hearts and his
Medical Evacuation each time. A BIG CONTRAST !!! But read it yourself.

Correction:

Senator Robert Dole was wounded
and permanently lost the use of his
right arm, not his left. My mistake.

Bush was a coward. Afraid of service in the Army, the branch deployed according to the whims of congressional committee, he became a fighter pilot.

Bush was an idiot. Avoiding danger by joining an active flight wing? Get your dad to send you to Oxford or something!

Bush was a wimp. He was afraid he couldn't make the Air Force first string.

In summary: Bush is a Republican.

Jerry, go to the nearest NG airbase. Find a pilot. Tell him that. When you get out of the hospital check in and tell us how it went.

De Ja Vu... Bush senior a "whimp" and Jr. a "dumb coward."

Since I have experience as both a soldier and as a pilot, I am compelled to contribute...

Bush the Elder landed very primative and battle damaged aircraft on moving targets in the dark. Discounting the combat that he faced that led to the battle damage, I find his monikor of "whimp" ludicrous. I would be nervous trying to but a pristine helicopter down on the deck of a carrier! And I have hundreds of hours flying helicopters.

As to the President being "dumb", ever try to navigate any aircraft in weather at night? It is tough and can only be done if one has a really good understanding of trigonometry. Hell, I've found myself ignoring the simple "wings-level" orientation of my aircraft while trying to figure out my next maneuver/turn. (BTW, I have an MS).

Both the F-102 and F-104 were classified as "All Weather Fighters". They were also among the first to be classified so. They had the most primative of "all weather"systems - deflecting vane dials. You "flew the needles". Needles that were extrordinarily susceptable to electromagnetic interference from ANY source - including the friendly ground based radar at Ellington field. Since this "All Weather" aircraft was new, most of the pilots were sent into the worst weather to prove the system.

I was once a Special Forces soldier in the US Army. And I subsequently spent some years flying Restricted and Experimental aircraft. I think I had the less demanding and scarey jobs than either Presidents Bush had in their military jobs..

Please understand that most pilots in a flat spin do not have the luxury of firing the rockets on the Martin-Baker ejection system while remaining IN the plane. Most of them ejected (quite deadly in itself in the early days) without the plane or died going in. The incident involving the F-106 is only note-worthy for what didn't happen. It's the single incident I'm aware of where the plane survived somewhat intact.

That said, I'm learning so much from battle-hardened veterans like dirk and jerry. I'm glad we have Limey 'experts' in the field of aviation to straighten us out on these matters.

What's amatter, dirk, silk panties in a knot since Becks went to Madrid? Have an eel pie or some blood sausauge and sheep sweetbreads and get back to us soon.

Ah, torpedo.

Diet jibes from the land where the crane is routinely used as a mode of transport. Full marks for identifying Cockneys (eel pie) as Man U fans. Nul points for suggesting I'm Yorkshire. Other side of the Pennines, I'm afraid. Scouse would be the relevant culinary abomination.

Limey 'experts' in aviation fought off the greatest war machine ever rolled into motion for 2 years while US plutocrats grew fat of their profits, including your Fearless Leader's granpappy. For political balance, I must slate Kennedy's influence in your valiant abdication from the threat of fascism - or, as you amusingly put it, socialism.

As I recall, the DUI was followed by the issue of a fresh, clean driving licence. Is it flinging abuse to mention facts, such as Bush being arrested 3 times?

"Dirk, what have you ever done as dangerous as flying a jet fighter?"

Does posting something here that doesn't venerate the Fearless Leader count? No? Well, the most dangerous situation I've been in had little to do with any decision I took. My family is Catholic, and my father served in the Army. I lived for 2 years as a child in Northern Ireland in the '70s, a few years after Bloody Sunday. Armoured vehicles rumbled past my house several times a day on routine patrol. Sunday Mass involved a long drive into the country. You could tell if a serviceman was serving in the province by the length of his hair - it was thought relaxing the dress code reduced the possibility of execution.

I don't impugn the service of the National Guard. I understand they are serving in Iraq right now. Trouble is, Bush ticked the do not volunteer box. He was bumped to the front of the queue for a hotly contested position. He was promoted within weeks of service, despite unspectacular performance in tests. He wasted US taxpayers dollars in a time of war by getting trained to fly and blowing off the last year of his service.

And then he shows us the astonishing chutzpah of landing on an aircraft carrier, using skills acquired on the taxpayer's dollar, to mark the end of a war in which people did what he chose not do. To fight and possibly die for their country.

Slinging s--t around, huh? I'll defer to the master, a Mr Karl Rove. Bush's attack dog pilloried Max Cleland, a man who lost 3 limbs serving his country in Vietnam, and cast doubt on the mental stability of John McCain because he served as a POW in the same conflict. At the behest of a man that was neither wounded nor suffered at the hands of VC captors for one simple reason - he chose not to serve his country. He was able-bodied, trained to fly and to date has never denied that the Vietnam conflict was a righteous war. The sliming of Kerry will be merely an extension of this healthy debating of the issues.

Too funny.

Dirk,

Yes you do impugn the Guard.! There are 3
Guard Divisions in Iraq now.

Among many others, the 49th Armored
Division of the Texas Army National
Guard was a heavily decorated group
of men in WW II.

You do not like Bush. It is also obvious that
you know absolutely nothing of the dangers
of any fighter aircraft. Everything you have
written about George Bush's "lack of courage"
is a complete and TOTAL lie.

There are NO REASONS to believe that you will
change your mind, so believe what you choose. It
DOES NOT MATTER anyway, except that you
sound like a Looney Lefty.

I might refer you to the last lines of Rudyard
Kipling, in his poem "Tommy".

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"

But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

I come from a family of Tommy's, for over 200 years
now.

We do not appreciate the French of today. We do
not appreciate our own Loony Left. We do not
appreciate those foreigners who call our President
names out of hatred. He will be re-elected, you
know!

Kabar: one other thing to note about Bush senior. He was shot down twice.

Now, granted landing a battle damaged aircraft on a moving deck that is, well really too small for such landings, at night, and sometimes lights out, is probably one of the riskiest things any military person has done. But to continue to do this, after being shot down by enemy planes, not once, but twice.. well...think you see the point.

Dirk: excuse me, but the one who made Max Cleland's patriotism an issue is Max Cleland. That was the central theme of his campaign, "Can you believe these guys are calling me unpatriotic? Just because on nearly every bill or issue to come before the House, post 9-11, I sided with the pacifists and the "root causes" crowd."

It was the voters who looked at Max and kicked him out. So all you are saying is that Karl Rove is better at persuading folks of a position you disagree with, than you, or Max Cleland are.

Look, right now, all you have is charges, and they look to be bogus. You have to make a case and an argument to the American voters that your way and your guy is better. Complaining that Karl Rove is so much better at convincing folks of the rightness of his cause, and the better qualities of his guy, well, that just ain't gonna to work. Blaming stupid voters ain't gonna work neither.

dirk In your rush to be SeniorSarcasm for ComPo, you neglected to tell folks how you imbibed in that feast of Culinary Madness - HeadCheese.


BTW - For a Brit, you sure do spout a bit on the US political scene. Pull up your Socks. Your Chips are showing.

Dirk, Do you have something against recovering alcoholics? You keep bringing up these issues.

One thing seems to be being forgotten here; and that is that people sometimes do stupid stuff when they're twenty. I include both George Bush and John Kerry in this. I don't know whether Bush did or did not do something untoward, nor do I care. Same with Kerry. I don't care. What I care about is what they've done now. Personally, I don't think Bush has done anything wrong, but maybe he did. You can't prove it either way, dirk. Neither can I.

We often do things when we're twenty that we regret or that if we had to do it over, would not make the same choices. Bush has admitted that, in public and in print. I think its cheap to minimize Bush's service just like I think its cheap to minimize Kerry's service. However, it is relevant to see that Kerry has not prioritized the military for the last thirty years in his Congressional voting record. It is also relevant to include Bush's record as commander-in-chief of two very successful wars.

Your constant smug, sniping personal attacks on the Bush family and excoriating Bush for sins long past only serves to make you look like a jackass, dirk. I expect more from you.

BTW, I don't think I need to remind you that Chamberlain's government's inaction was far more damaging to your country than our inaction, and I would further remind you that the Lend-Lease act was the only thing that allowed you to survive even that. That first sentence was a cheap shot, dirk, even for you. And further, according to the Journal of the American College of Cardiology, Scotland is still the fattest nation, not the US. So debate, stop making snotty derisive remarks that are beneath you, or kiss our collective fat ass.

Dirk said:
"Limey ‘experts’ in aviation fought off the greatest war machine ever rolled into motion...."
Now I don't want to malign the great effort put in by British fliers during the Battle of Britain but there were others fighting too like Poles, Free French and yes American volunteers. The Nazi war machine was greatly exaggerated. France had a larger army. Germany succeeded largely due to surprise attacks, superior tactics and a fearful reputation. The war was largely the result of incompetence on the part of the British and French - actually by not acting before Germany became an imminent threat.
I really do not think experience in wartime should count for too much as Hitler earned an Iron Cross in the first world war and look how he turned out. Running away or becoming a peacenik objector is fairly significant though.
Surely you Americans have no choice but to vote Bush back in. Voting him out will undo all the good work so far and will smell like defeat to the Islamofascists. Bush gives terrific speeches and looks like a president (imagine Dean as president...yuck) and is a man of action yet shows restraint. I know if sheriff Bush came looking for a posse I'd ride with him.

Bush gives terrific speeches
************************************************************
Only if you think stutter counts make for better speeches. I have heard the man speak at a commencement and he is boring as sh**. No passion, just tough talk.

The man is a freaking chimp who cannot even tame the English language much less the Islamofascists.

ROFLMAO!!!!

I know if sheriff Bush came looking for a posse I’d ride with him.
***********************************************************
Can a post get any gayer than this?

LOL! I will just let that comment stand on its own.

Enjoy the ride my friend....haha

Sheriff Bush....ROFLMAO!!! that is the funniest line I have seen on CP

Bush wasn't a deserter. He was a "Fortunate Son" like Quayle was. He got vaulted ahead of many candidates with lousy test scores to get the gig in the Guard. I don't have a problem with someone trying to avoid that God awful war, but I do have a problem with him running around in a flight suit on an aircraft carrier like he was Gods gift to Carrier Pilots. Only his father had the war record to do something like that, but he had to much class to show off in that way. As a reservist myself, I know its not uncommon to miss some drills but more than a years worth should have meant getting the boot from the Guard and Active duty overseas since he wasn't a prior service enlistee. Two of his Fitreps were "Not Observed" because his Senior officers had never seen him!

You guys are missing a rather important point. If Bush was such a coward and he had such political pull why in god's name did he volunteer to fly practically experimental all weather jets instead of getting a desk job counting sprockets at Fort Bragg? Hmm?

Jack, Bush cant win with you people. On 911, he decides not to fly to NY because it would be an empty symbolic gesture and the security didnt want to do it. You blast him. The Iraq war ends, and Bush flies out to congratulate the first heroes returning home victorious, and you blast him. So to Bush I say, follow your heart. These maroons are just out to get you no matter what.

Oh, and btw... how do you think Al Gore got an MOS as a war reporter?

"Whatever the lieutenant at the Newark induction center told Gore, he received his job assignment not there but during basic training at Fort Dix. His military occupational specialty (MOS) was 71Q10 -- a journalist. How did he get that designation? According to his military file, he told a superior during the processing that he had worked as a "newspaper trainee" for the New York Times one summer. He had been a copy boy there, not a reporting intern, between his sophomore and junior years at Harvard. Apparently his superiors at Fort Dix were impressed enough to recommend him as a reporter trainee at Fort Rucker in Alabama, and allow him to take the relatively uncommon route to get there, skipping weeks of advanced training at Fort Benjamin Harrison in Indiana and moving directly from basic training to on-the-job training. "


"Gore ended up spending five months in Vietnam, less than half the normal tour. He asked for and received an "early out" that May at a time when the 20th Engineers were standing down as part of a gradual U.S. troop reduction. Even as he was bombarded with "sensory patterns" during his many trips around the country, his experiences were circumscribed by the nature of his job and his skill at working the military system. He was a reporter, not an infantryman, and while he was never fully out of harm's way, neither did he face situations where he had to kill or be killed, and he was spared the sight of seeing any buddies die. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A48066-1999Dec29&notFound=true

Wow, what strange coincidences. Al Gore, son of a powerful senator gets snapped up during basic to be a war reporter, doesnt have to go to any advanced training, and then gets to leave Vietnam after half a tour. Probably just a lucky guy, huh?

///Can a post get any gayer than this?///

Just one more post from "Mr. Open-minded" himself.

Or maybe you'd like to compare his post to a birth defect, what2?


///LOL! I will just let that comment stand on its own.///

As will I.

"If George W. Bush wanted to pick a safe place to sit out the war he probably could have chosen a better spot than the cockpit of an F-102. Flying supersonic jet aircraft is a dangerous business. Similar planes in the period that Bush flew had a fatal pilot accident rate of about one per 40,000 flight hours. Assuming that Bush flew about a thousand hours over his career, this would mean he had a bit over a 2 percent chance of a fatal accident sometime during his service.

About 3.4 million men served in Vietnam, and about 60,000 were killed -- a fatal casualty rate of just under 2 percent. Thus it is entirely possible that Bush was actually running a bigger risk of death than someone in a non-combat position in Vietnam, such as Gore -- though much less than someone carrying an M-16 in a rice paddy."
http://www.salon.com/letters/1999/07/15/hate/index1.html

63 war reporters were killed in Vietnam. i dont know how many flight trainees and peacetime pilots were killed, but I assure you it was far more.

Ben,
I think the point is having the courage of conviction. I also think this is a genetically transmitted trait.

Jackass, eh?

torpedo_eight has a pop and I respond in kind. I also mention some facts. How old was Prescott Bush when he made millions selling arms to the Nazis while they were at war with Britain? I think 20 is below the minimum age for Senatorial candidates.

Youthful indiscretions. Bush went AWOL when he was 25 years old. As you say, he stopped drinking - at age 40. Maybe the video footage of him at a wedding 6 years later, inebriated and throwing Jack Daniels down his neck, was faked. Another stunt from '87: man in his forties marches up to journalist dining with his wife and 4 year old child and launches into a foul-mouthed tirade, calling the hack a "fucking sonofabitch" and announcing that the Bush family won't forget his actions. The hack's crime? Suggesting Kemp would get the nomination over Daddy. Just another folly of youth. The DUI in Kennebunkport happened when Bush was 30 - a mere whippersnapper. Still, he found God, like Karla Faye Tucker. Who mocked her plea for clemency? - you guessed it, a middle-aged Christian.

These young 'uns can be so feisty.

Hey what2, how do you know I am not a women? I write I would ride in a posse with Bush and my mind conjures up images of old western movies. You're mind instantly conjures up something altogether different, something you must think about rather a lot it seems. It's OK ,you know, it's the 21st century now, you can come out and we will still debate with you.
So now we have to be careful about every word or phrase we use. Can't use riding, or coming, or love, or gay, or 'go with' and who knows what else lest it stirs some emotions in our readers.

dirk, We may think Bush is a moron. We may think he's a bit flip or smug or smirks too much. But we react differently to foreigners coming in here and judging his or our fitness by their standards.

You're the same way. You don't want Americans setting English foreign policy, do you? You're not the poodle, right?

Understand - if you want to flip, add a little pip pip to your comments, your nose will be cut off with the rest. We get enough practice with morally superior Canadians, whose only defense to being the only member of NATO without a military is cop a attitude.

Americans are pigs, idiots, in-bred S&M types with a masculinity-challenged gun fixation. They eat garbage and worry more about Super Bowl halftime than they do the next President.

Tell yourself whatever it takes to live with us, but the fact remains that we need each other. We are mindless philistines because we didn't read Chaucer in kindergarten, okay? Our interests are different on taste levels. But if you can't make up your mind who to support, your NATO allies or nuclear-tipped Islamofascists, if you think we went into Iraq to prop up Haliburton or BP or Bechtel or (am I leaving any of the conspiracy players out?) I don't know, McDonalds - then you have a more fundamental problem than anyone here can cure.

We all know how many holes it takes to fill Albert Hall and I don't expect you to change your pitch just for any sense of us being on the same side, but if you're wondering why someone might want to unload the occasional 'jackass' in your direction -
you're not reading your own posts.

Piss & vinegar does not return sweetness and light. Butch up a little if you're going to continue to sling it.

This is an important story, since to my knowlege it is the only one that seems to suggest that there is actually evidence that someone witnessed the president training while in Alabama in 1972-1973. The only problem with it is that it is all assertion and no fact.

Who are the "those who trained and flew with Bush"?

The official record indicates that he served 22 months and was absent or unaccounted for 17 months of the time he was said to have been in the Air National Guard. Surely, the Karl Rove White House, press relations operations must have at least one eyewitness who is willling to step forward on the record.

As for Gore receiving an early release, the president acknowledged during the interview that he received and was granted a request to obtain an early release so that he could be involved in a political campaign.

I am pleased that the in his recent interview with Tim Russert, the president has made it clear that his campaign will be forthcomming about the evidence so that the press and others will be make up their minds on the basis of the record and of fact rather than assertion.

SG Poss, did you read the linked articles? Names, dates, explanation.

Or do you just want to cast innuendos?

It must be hard to belong to a party that has no plans except to sneak into power. No vision except to beat a dead horse.

"The official record indicates that he served 22 months and was absent or unaccounted for 17 months of the time he was said to have been in the Air National Guard."

The record states nothing of the kind. Go read the rest of this thread and follow the links to the major media sources. This gets so irratating sometimes. Its like: ok we agree that 1+1=2? great. We agree that 1+2=3? Great. So what does 1+1+1 equal? 37?! What were we just talking about! ARGHHHHH

Ah dirk, dirk, dirk,

I never used to think you were a hopeless troll of a pillock, but now I'm beginning to wonder. I didn't. Really. When you first started posting, you actually gave the illusion that you have something useful to contribute. But you keep on with this stuff. It's kind of funny, actually.

Let's start with this question, dirk: My

great-grandfather was a drunk and a wife-beater; does that make me one too? Because that's the way you frame your points about Prescott Bush. As if they have some relevance.

As for all this other "information"? What are you, a private detective? I've never seen half the stuff you allege that Bush has done, not even on dailykos.com, where I lurk frequently. I've certainly never seen you provide citations for three quarters of all the little anecdotal stuff, (the stumbling inebriate videos, the making fun of a death row born again Christian) The stuff you have provided citations for seems to have been roundly and solidly refuted.

Hell, you don't even give us the chance to agree with you. You just throw out random nonsense, no matter how ridiculous, and if we argue it or ask you to provide proof, well then...No, we're all just "brainwashed" "Truebelievers""can't think for ourselves" etc etc etc etc etc

The funny thing is, you and people like you will believe the worst about Bush no matter how offensive or how absurd with little or no information to substantiate it; however, you will ignore the vast body of information regarding Saddam Hussein and suspicious weapons programs which, I might add, was far more substantial than any allegation against Bush.....

And you will ignore it all by saying that you didn't have enough information.

Well, I guess that's intellectual honesty for you, huh, dirk?


Cheers,
JM

PS. I was unfortunately unable to connect to your little "Wizard of Oz" link, as I do not have a subscription to the NYT. Let me clarify for the reading comprehension impaired again.

I am a believer and an advocate of the civil rights of homosexuals, indeed, I believe that there is a genetic basis and anatomic evidence shows the differences.

Despite that, however, as a scientist, I am forced to admit the paucity of scientific data showing these traits in animals. That means scientific, dirk, as in a randomized controlled study without confounders. Not just some biased joker who writes a book. No one would support real data more than I would. The data does exist in humans. What2 was on the receiving end of my wrath because when I asked him to provide proof of his assertion that my above statement was wrong, rather than prove it or admit he was in fact...wrong, he called me first stupid, then a bigot, (which, as you can see, is in error) and most recently, if you've been paying attention, lazy.

Defending that is not a way to make yourself look progressive, dirk. Or smart. But hey, let's give him a big high five, anyway! Woo-hoo!!! Go00000 Stupidity!!!! Hooray!!

If you can provide me the link or at least a similar article, I'd be happy to look at it.

...Not that any of you true believers would ever be wrong or anything, but take a gander at the document Calpundit turned up...

PTG, OMG, I guess they'll have to hang him!!

This constitutes almost treasonous behavior. Almost as bad as having your friends transfer missile technology to the Chinese for cash.

Off to prison, now, he's a liar! He's the first one we ever caught. The rest are totally honest. Get him out of the gene pool before he cross-breeds with Ted Kennedy.

Crivens. Odds bodikins. Cor blimey and lumme lawks.
I just got medieval on yo' ass, johnny. You may have expected something worse.


First off. Whether the word ducky can be both figurative and literal. I read your smackdown of what2 with interest, like I read all your posts, and you get good marks for efficiency and restraint. Your characterisation of the debate was informed and I agree with your ethical stance. My post on the other thread wasn't a dig at you, but rather a symptom of my predilection for cheap one-liners. I have been dogged (not literally) by an appreciation of slang, innuendo and lowbrow humour for as long as I can recall. Scorn is heaped on me for appreciating Carry On films and 'Allo 'Allo (includes racial stereotypes
- bonus!), although I do draw the line at Benny Hill - he was a c--t. So when the opportunity arose to link the slang term 'friend of Dorothy' with a Judy Garland film, following PtG's, er, mock ambivalence about what2's posts, I took it. I thought it was funny. The NYT link requires free registration, I believe. I'm not too interested in the animal homosexuality issue as it seems to be seized on by those who condemn such behaviour in humans on moral grounds and those who seek to defend themselves from such attacks. It would be convenient if men were invariably men and behaved as such, and women etc. But life is messy. And I'd hate to be in the position where to justify my emotional and physical bond with someone I had to resort to pointing to a penguin incubating a rock. I'd be angry. Angry and tired.

Now, Bush. I don't have something against recovering alcoholics - I live in Britain, and there aren't enough hours in the day to muster up the required bile levels to maintain such a position. You've accused me a waging an investigative campaign against him. The stuff I've mentioned on this thread is factual, and I haven't mounted a special campaign to unearth it, which suggests either the US media isn't doing it's job properly, or I'm dredging up falsehoods with an agenda. If anyone can resist the ad hominem approach and refute, I'm all ears. People interject, suggesting I use circumstantial evidence to paint the worst picture I can e.g. that I accuse Bush of drug-use when I mention Bush never showed when he transferred to Alabama to work on a campaign, which happened at the time mandatory drug testing was introduced in the Guard. Given that Bush was actually grounded for failing to take a physical, that he spent a summer working at an inner city project (apparently as a plea-bargain - either that or he was nurturing the Jimmy Carter that lurks within us all), given that he has repeatedly refused to deny he committed felonies prior to 1974, given that he was cheerleader for the party scene between Andover and Yale - it's not unreasonable to wonder why this question isn't simply batted down with a flat denial and release of the records. It seems it's wrong to ask searching questions about the President, after all he is the Head of State, unless it's the Clenis. Dozens of lawsuits were launched by monied Republicans at Clinton as soon as he took office. Eventually taxpayers were charged for the pursuit. But Whitewater and a blowjob would never have taken centre stage if Clinton had made hundreds of thousands of dollars selling stock days before a financial report of which he was aware was released and sent the stock plummeting. Or if his firm had been bailed out by the brother of the chief suspect for the most devastating terrorist attack on US soil. Or if his grandfather had made millions from business with the Nazis. Or if he'd driven drunk with several passengers. His head would been on a spike outside No 1600, figuratively and quite possibly literally. But I was forgetting the dozens of murders. And the rapes. And the wanton littering. I have no cites for these, I'm afraid.

A lot of the stuff I lob in Bush's direction would stick to Kerry, but as yet Kerry hasn't used my taxes and the lives of my countrymen and women to prosecute his policies, so my powder's dry. Patrician arrogance, privileged background, large unearned fortune. They're members of the same secret society. One respect in which they differ is that little Georgey avoided serving in Vietnam, and apparently couldn't even be bothered to finish avoiding it, while little Johnny served, was wounded, saved someone's life and was decorated 5 times. There are many avenues of attack to clobber Kerry - he's from Massachussetts, dig up that Willie Horton footage - but running his war record down after the carrier landing is a bridge too far.

You asked for cites:

Bush, while pissed, takes piss out of America.
Tucker Carlson asked about his 1999 Talk interview with Bush - sub reqd, day pass available. As Carlson states his migivings about Bill O'Reilly and Fox, maybe try this Boston Globe piece, via CommonDreams I know, but hold on, I've seen Daily Torygraph articles there. Some of it must be true.
Bush avoids baby-kissing election stump cliche, shows loyalty. Quite positive, this one. Unless one next watches the wedding video. You're supposed to circle the wagons, fella, not fall off 'em.

I shouldn't mention Bush's hypocrisy over this execution and his willingness to execute prisoners who had the most cursory legal representation without mentioning Clinton's similar enthusiasm, and his taking a flight back to Little Rock during his '92 campaign to execute a feeble-minded felon in order to appear tough on crime. I gather you're a Christian, johnny, and I don't mean to cause offence, but killing people to appease Christians is deeply ironic. This is topical now thanks to colonial chip-on-shoulder Mr Mad Max Revisionism. Two whole millenia and Christians haven't realised that executing people is probably the last thing Christ wants to see. 2000 years on and we still 'know not what [we] do'.

torpedo_eight

I'm not pulling cultural rank here. I've read several American authors and I must say you're coming on in leaps and bounds, hehe. All I'm slinging are facts. I think facts are great. They permit the taking of informed decisions and are just super for the debunking of myths and truisms. We should all of us seek to acquire as many useful facts as we can possibly deal with, I'm sure you'll agree.

I'm posting on a blog comments section, not rifling through your pockets and threatening your family. The Brits haven't done that for centuries. There was a small war, and it stopped. We had other continents to pillage. The situation is reversed, and I don't have to like it. And then the NATO allies vs nuclear Muslims dilemma - uhmm, eeny meeny: I choose France and Germany. Is that what you want me to do?

You hit the nail on the head with this:
"You don't want Americans setting English foreign policy, do you? You're not the poodle, right?"
but are way off beam with
"You're the same way."

What unreasonable standards am I imposing on Bush, and by extension your entire nation? Elucidate, please. My anti-Bush campaign is so convoluted and long-running I've lost track. You know, I've wondered how troublesome day to day living must be for you. A simple drive in the country and you're wracked by an insuppressible realisation that the highway you're traversing isn't a toll road. You pull over for a stroll in the fresh air, and with each life-giving lungful you feel the dollars spurt from the beating economic heart that is your wallet. Wracked by doubt, you plunge into a nearby stream for relief from the nightmare, but every drop of the clear, limpid water that touches and fails to sear and scar your flesh mocks the beads of sweat you exerted creating your own localised hydrological ecosphere, where the rain that falls and the water that you drink doesn't kill you or any other organisms.

A propos of nothing, I have a story that may warm the cockles of your heart. 19 migrant workers drowned recently collecting cockles off the Lancashire coast. They lived 60 to a Victorian terrace, and worked 9 hour shifts in treacherous conditions for a wage, after deductions, of £1. Per shift. Unconfirmed reports by onlookers said they appeared to be strong swimmers, but what seemed to be an 'invisible hand' held them under the water. Still, anyone stupid enough to be wage-slaved for £1/day should be out of the gene pool and into the wide expanse of Morecambe Bay.

Wow, why would Bush drown those workers like that? Remember back in the good ol Clinton days when there were no illegal aliens?
Good lord, Bush Derangement Syndrome. Never seen such a bad case. Dirk, seek help.

Let me first state about the Calpundit document--that at this time I have no opinion; however, I will note that I am a little perplexed as to how something can be referred to as "genuine" when in the very next sentence the person states that he doesn't know what the document actually even is.

Dirk,

See?!? There he is! Underneath the increasingly troll-encrusted exterior. All it took was a little coaxing. :)

I am pleased to hear that your link wasn't a cheap shot at me as I have no wish to rehash that stupid issue. I'm even more glad to see that it was also not an endorsement of that pinhead who doesn't know "what" he is incoherently babbling about. I must apologize, actually. Lately I've been finding its been uncomfortably easy (and surprisingly necessary) to unload with both barrels on some of the more recent posters. (More like my brother, I've noticed lately) I've seen blast doors that are less dense. And while it probably shouldn't have bothered me, when some punk assclown who probably is lucky to have a GED or a high school diploma (if that) is telling me I'm too stupid, lazy, (or worse, bigoted) to understand my own field of study, it kind of gets on my nerves. ( I guess I'm an intellectual snob that way, too, Pass.) Oh, wait, I forgot, what2 is cool...... Riiiiiiiiight.

If I accused you unfairly, dirk, please accept my apology.

Anyway, I had a chance to thoroughly review the links you posted and did some googling on my own. (I usually wait to hear the kind of things you post on the liberal blogs-also, I still for some reason couldn't get into the NYT link. I'll have to do some homework on my own)

I noticed several things. First of all, all bias must be addressed and examined which you did, both pro-Bush (wapo.com) and the anti-Bush (BosGlo) Secondly, Bush apparently swore off drinking in 1986-87 after over one year of trying, with apparent difficulty, to quit. The DUI you posted, (with the actual citation--classy!) was dated 1976. In addition, the expletive spewing inebriate incident with Al Hunt of the Wall Street Journal was dated 1986. While he didn't admit drinking; you omitted the fact not only that Al Hunt couldn't remember in detail the event, but also that Bush called Al Hunt personally and apologized for his behavior.

Alcoholism is a very sad disease, indeed. The destroyer of many a family and career.

Which brings us to 1992--the wedding video. It took a bit of work to get a computer with Quicktime to work, and even then the audio was poor, but one could argue that Bush was certainly somewhat....less than Presidential. Not exactly inappropriate given the setting. His audience seemed to appreciate him. The poster wasn't sure what was in his glass, dirk. Why are you? Now certainly, he very well could have been drunk, and I think its reasonable to admit that. This of course, would make his claim in 2000 that "he has not had any alcohol, not one drop" a lie. I think it would also be reasonable, dirk, for you to admit that even people who have successfully quit drinking sometimes relapse. Often in unfortunate ways. That doesn't make him a liar or a failure. I will cede the point as "unknown".

You bring up some other notable, but in my view, irrelevant points. Bin Laden's brother is not a criminal. Nor is any member of the Bin Laden family that I am aware with one notable exception. The fact that he bailed out Bush's business should not be surprising given that Mr. Bin Laden is an international oil magnate. If you are trying to spin that into trafficking or supporting terrorism or giving preferential treatment to the murderers, good luck. The Mussolini and Hirohito families are still quite prominent in both their countries. None of their members, to my knowledge, have embraced fascism. Shall we examine and be suspicious of all of their business dealings?

And as for all that flying around business, let me give a similar example, since Mark has already determined nothing illegal or unethical was done, and that there was no reason or legal basis on which they could be detained: Would you like to be the only English guy named Wellington in France when the news hit Paris that Napoleon got his ass kicked by a young upstart admiral of the same name? Especially if you hadn't committed a crime? What if it were determined that you didn't just have the same name, but were actually related?

As for Prescott Bush, ok, let's say you're right. I have no evidence either way, dirk, so even if your evidence is as flimsy as some of the other things you've cited, I'll take your word for it for the time being. While disappointing, this does not constitute any untoward activity on the part of the President any more than my "grandpappy's" alcoholism makes me an alcoholic.

I think its sufficient to stop there for the time being, dirk. You bring up some good points about partisanship during the Clinton era, and a lot of what you say being applicable to Kerry, which was kind of the above point in my previous post. People do stupid stuff when they're young. Bush may be everything you say: An alcoholic, a drug addict, a criminal. I have seen him (as I have seen before) publicly and in print rebuke his former lifestyle. He has been asked why he does not more definitively rebuke these charges. So I ask you, would you let hang all of your youthful indiscretions for the slavering media? I wouldn't. And even if I had back then, one accusation echoed in the media of prior knowledge of 9/11 would any desire on my part to make personal disclosures that I was ashamed of. I don't blame him. Because of my belief, dirk, that people can and do change, I believe him when he says that he has made mistakes that he regrets. I have seen no current evidence to suggest that he does not.

Now, based on your above citations, one may make the argument that these things just underscore a longstanding pattern of deceptive or antisocial behavior which continues to today. And maybe I could believe that, dirk, if certain things weren't true. One is that my previous comment still stands about evidence vs. Bush Vs. evidence against Saddam Hussein. The second is that so many of the things leveled against Bush are so blatantly unfair that there is no room to debate the actual things I disagree with. The level of attacks, both personal and political, have reached an unprecedented level. Even Bill Clinton, who sometimes got the shaft (although lots of times deserved it) and who was on the receiving end of some highly unfair attacks, wasn't subjected to the outright slander that Bush is.

So here's how I see it, dirk. I'm not nearly as partisan as people think I am. It probably seems like it, given what typically gets discussed here, but...

I see a man who was a punk spoiled rich kid, and then later realized that he was one, and wanted to change it, and turned to God to do so.

I see a very believable woman stand up and say that she couldn't remain married to her husband if had remained the way he was before he quit drinking......and yet she has.

I see a man routinely accused of racism, yet speaks Spanish fluently and has the most ethnically diverse Cabinet in American history.

I have seen the same people accuse Bush of warcrimes and genocide and yet stay silent when the names Saddam Hussein, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and Kim Jong Il come up.

I see a man who foolishly signed the McCain-Feingold Act, an actual egregious attack on freedom of speech, and I have seen all the critics of the Patriot Act, an egregious, yet theoretical attack on rights, stay silent.

I see a man who has spent more on education than the last three Republican Presidents put together, and who had an actual plan to improve education accused ona a routine basis by US Congressmen of "not caring about children"

I see a man who has increased spending on education by 36%, instead of 45% accused of "cutting education and stealing our children's future"

I see a man unfairly accused of prior knowledge of the death of 3000 American civilians; which would make him an accessory to murder.

I see man who just passed the largest Medicare entitlement in recent history of "Telling Grandma to go fuck herself" by some of the biggest names in entertainment.

I see a man who has moderately improved our security, but needs to do much more.

I see a man who does what he says he will do and keeps his promises, even in the face of some of the nastiest and despicable criticism I have ever seen of anyone, anywhere, ever.

I see a man who has not secured either our southern or northern border, or our ports.

I see a man who has increased veteran spending by 9% be accused of abandoning veterans.

I have seen this man accused of tyranny, meanwhile, millions of Iraqis need not worry about they or their family disappearing in the middle of the night again, among other things.

I have seen the same President excoriated for spending us into debt and not caring enough to spend money by the same people.

I have seen this man accused of being like Hitler, up to and including the Fuhrer moustache; an insult to the millions who died and survived an actual holocaust.

I see someone who needs to spend less.

I see someone who saw an tax-overburdened population, and sought to rectify it, and as a result has improved the economy.

I see someone who needs to decrease the size of government.

And lastly, I see an individual who, with far more evidence (although still incomplete) than even the most convincing of that arrayed against him, make the only decision he could have made and strike down an evil despotic megalomaniac before he could become a threat to American security, while he had the window of opportunity to do so.

So you see, dirk, one can look at this in various ways, and still at least try to remain objective. I think that's the case here. If all we debate is hyperbole all the time, what room is there to discuss how someone, or a nation, can actually move forward?

Sorry for the length.

Cheers
JM

PS- one last thing, I wish that when you quote the Bible, I wish you would be consistent. The Bible Jesus read was the Old Testament; in fact, he quoted from Deuteronomy more than any other book. He believed it was the Word of God, for obvious reasons. As Genesis 9:5-6 states:

5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

I know you and I disagree on this, but if you are going to use Christ to support your argument, you can't dismiss the other 99% of what he said and who he was. He believed the Old Testament. No cherry-picking.

SG Poss,

Bush served in the 147th FIG flying F-102. I know this second hand from a person who also flew in that organization, my father. People like Dirk can now tell me how my father was a coward and guarded the dangerous beaches of Texas. However, I'm unimpressed by Dirk suffering as a catholic in Ireland compared to my father serving two tours of duty in Vietnam aboard B-52s as an active duty officer before joining the Texas ANG.

Dirk and someone with the peusdonym of a fictious "CIA operative" can act like they are more intelligent and capable than POTUS, but I find it interesting their greatest accomplishment is denouncing military service and stiring up others to respond to them.

I have no doubt the trashing of Bush's record, including others who proudly served their country in Texas or other Guard units, is to ensure a Kerry win in November. Falling that, these people are concerned that no one will care about their pitiful lives. I guess I make too much money and have a too good a job to worry about the lives of Dirk and Jack Ryan.

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