I don't have a lot of pity for peaceful Islam at this point. The one thing that could help roll back the extremists would be a united stand by mainstream Islam utterly condemning violence and abhoring terrorism for any cause. Instead we get a lot of 'yes, buts' and self pity. In this country, instead of a steady stream of outreach and calls for moderation, we get screams of racism for an extra pat down at the airport, and allegations of hate crimes that statistically dont exist. Make no mistake, for the most part 'mainstream' Islam is sitting this one out. Its cowardly and self defeating. If the US bears some responsibility for militant Islam due to its foriegn policy overseas, surely peaceful Islam must bear responsibility for not opposing violence right within its own community.

Mark - They find themselves in a very difficult dilemna, in that they can find NO 'proof texts' in the Quran or the Haddiths to support 'toleration' of religions other than Islam. The proof texts currently being 'used' by the Extremist elements MUST be interpreted in a literal sense. It is as if as a Christian I could not rely on the Bible and Tradition for my Order of Life, but had to rely on Jesus Christ himself. What is contained in the Quran IS ALL, and one must enslave himself to IT, because IT says that is what one MUST do.
That is the reason why Muslims find it very difficult to Order their Lives in a pluralistic society. Their view of Western society is very different than our view. Ours (here) is based on Inalienable rights that we have 'outside' of society, whereas in the Muslim 'society' one has no 'rights' as an individual even 'inside'.

Now we'd all like to think that religion disregards material considerations, but...

Who finances the mullahs in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Who finances Islam in the surrounding countries?

My guess is the Iraqi/Afghan mullahs were supported by government stipends. Want to cool their jets? Make them have to get their funding from the offering plate (or Islamic equivalent).

No bigshots talking against the Wahhabis? They'd have to get permission from the local state's political leaders or risk funding change. Dangerous.

Now there have to be some independents, right? Yeah, the Wahhabis amply financed by the Saudis who are scared of them.

What we have to do is find an Islamic Martin Luther or two or three and give them all the money and support they needs.

Look what happens in the normal world. When a faction gets powerful it almost automatically splits into dissenting groups. We have to find the dissenters and finance them. It should not be as hard as one might think. For one thing, the word "heretic" is not in the Islamic vocabulary.

Dave, I don't buy it. The Talmud is chocked full of Jewish law set down by none less than Moses himself that no-one dreams of adhering to. Every religion ultimately accepts that specific laws vary by time and circumstance. Thats why they have guys with funny hats making arbitrary decisions all the time. I do agree that the Quran is not the touchy feely peace and love fest that multiculturalists would have us believe, but that doesnt mean that Muslim leaders can't harp on the fact that butchering women and children is not helpful to Islam.

Guys,

You might find one of the articles in yesterday's Op/Ed section to be helpful:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/tazkiyah/islamic_spirituality_forgotten.htm

A bit long, with Islamic words that require some background to understand, but a good read.

An important point: All the emphasis of Wahabi Islam on outward appearances (clothing, behavior, etc.) provides none of the spiritual benefits of Islam. Hence, it doesn't nourish society, and can not keep adherents.

My speculation: The lifelong Wahabists will tend to be thugs, that "get off" on dominating others. How does one deal with that? Perhaps the part of the Saudi monarchy that wants to change can hire some "fixers" to liquidate the Wahabi leadership and royal supporters.

Or, a Saudi civil war. Either way, I think that for Wahabism to get purged, a lot of blood will have to spill. Every other vicious ideology has required a lot of death to make it fade -- this one is no different.

MG

One of the stories I've seen but can't get my hands on was the rebuilt mosque somewhere in what used to be Yugoslavia.

I can't remember which flare up it was -- had to do with ethnic cleansing -- but during the shooting a mosque was damaged. It was in the ornate Turkish style as are most of those in that region.

Well, the Saudis never quite up for contributing troops in that fight to protect Moslems, graciously volunteered to rebuild the mosque and foot the bill.

Rebuild they did. From an ornate Turkish edifice to a bauhaus set of stark white blocks.

The best part of the story? They bulldozed over the graveyard in back. Apparently wahhabi see gravestones as "idolatry." No gravestones. I'm sure they endeared themselves to the moslem locals

It seems a little exposition of Wahhabi imperialism ought to be finding itself to non-Saudi Islamic press.

mark, the talmud is chocked full of jewish law as set down by the rabbi's. You'll find it has little to do with what moses said.
you won't find the ten commandments in there because they aren't.
it's basicly a collection of what rabbi's think, alot is really bizare. some talmudists are so extreme that they tell their following to ignore the bible completely.

The muslims have the haddiths, which you can see are also really bizare. it's in complete oposition to anything god said.

There is no such animal as peaceful Islam. Read anything by Bat Ye'or and realize this. Islam regards "peace" as that state in which non-Muslims are subdued by and in submission to Islam. Until that state is achieved, then they think they are forced to wage war to bring it about. Thus, in their view, it is the non-Muslims of the world who are responsible for all the violence and bloodshed that Muslims wreak. If we would just shut up and become Muslims, then they wouldn't have to bomb and kill us ... provided that we became the "right kind of Muslim" that is.

It's a gutter religion that is pure craziness.

Sadly, I find myself agreeing with Dtrini. I'm afraid muslims are an antisocial bunch at the best of times, and have a feeling (a bit like the French) that they are right and everyone else is out of step.

Don't kid yourselves: the reason mainstream muslims do not denounce extremist muslims is because both sides are in agreement on principles, its only their methods they disagree on. Mainstream muslims are perfectly happy to bask in the attention they are now receiving. Never before did the West care so much about what muslims feel, and they love it. There are even Christians queing up to blame Judaeo-Chrstian society for the hatred of muslims.

The notion that somehow mainstream muslims are sympathetic towards Western Christians and Jews is an absolute fallacy. They are not. They all wish for a muslim society to be predominant, and hate the fact that their own society is frankly a failure (no scientific achievements, no literary achievements, in fact there is nothing that the muslim world has contributed to the civilised world for many thousands of years.)

Put yourself in their shoes. If you were a massive religious culture who had once been mighty, but have now failed to make any impact on the modern world, you would be bitter. And you would want to make the succesful cultures pay a high price for your failure. In that sense, Islam will never be a religion of peace.

Finally, remember this: not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.

Western religious thought, born in Europe and brought to the Americas, is one of toleration and Individual Idealism. Islam is but the opposite. All sects within Islam, be they 'extreme' or otherwise, MUST adhere to the Quran, which MUST be taken literally. Albeit the text must be 'interpretted' in human time and circumstance, the individual is a 'slave' to the will of Allah, as put forth in the Quran. Christian 'free will' is the anithesis of Islam, and never the twain shall meet. It stayed in Park, while Western thought moved into Drive. Islam will never put the mechanism of concious thought in motion, because Allah forbids it.

Dave Dube

I hope and believe the single posture of Islam theory along Algazel lines is wrong. At the outset I said what Islam needed was a Reformation. In reading up and realize they only need a revival of the Ibn Rushd school.

At one time Islam was, in practice, one of the most progressive and tolerant religions of the world. They were great proponents of reason. That is why they lead in every science during our Dark Ages. Somehow reason got chucked and blind adherence to what was written became the fashion.

Ideas don't disappear normally. We have to find the Ibn Rushd survivors and promote them (behind the scenes).

Limpet - It isn't that I couldn't accept what you are saying, but can you direct me to some historical record that would indicate your line of reasoning? My history books (some pretty solid sources), indicate that although the Quran was 'gathered', every one of the 'schools' agrees on what is contained in it, in toto. There is no matter of 'private interpretation', such as we have in Western Christianity, albeit we will have to ignore Catholicism, since Catholicism maintains (and so says scripture) that the individual has not the wherewithal to 'interepret' scripture, and the Church holds 'teaching authority'. The Quran is decidedly different in that regard. In other words, Limpet, I'm going to humbly disagree with you, unless you can prove otherwise.

I don't get your question.

There has historically been de facto less than literal interpretation of the Koran. Jst look at Turkey and Egypt historically. Even today there are numerous Islamic countries where people run around not observing the Koran as literally as the Wahhabi would like them too. Most of these countries have adopted more rational view out of necessity. They couldn't deal with the modern world and other cultures otherwise.

The strains of modern living just and living in a global communitywill not accomodate the tribal interpretations. That's what Al-Qaeda fears and wants to prevent by bring down the non-Islamic community.

This whole tread is about the Algazel v. Ibn Rushd view.

Ibn Rushd provides an Islamic precedent for modern-leaning Moslems to hang their hat on. It is that little wedge we can use that we didn't have to invent.

Just because strict interpretation has dominated in the past doesn't mean it can't change. Interpretation of passages in the Bible and the weight given them has changed.

There are Moslems just itching to "defect" philosophically, but simply need a good excuse (i.e., some Islamic philosophy that doesn't make them feel like traitors).

Limpet - Hold your breath.

Analogy forthcoming. Western thought=Christianity.
Earliest 'Authority'=Catholic Church. Every 'splinter' after that has absconded with Authority. Until we now have the Episcopalians, who have reaped the harvest of allowing the Authority to reside in the Individual. Source? Catholic Church has maintained that it has had two sources for 2000 years, and those two sources are Text and Tradition. Splinters threw Tradition in the ashcan. That leaves them with 'Text'. Do you see where I'm going here? Islam has had ONLY ONE source, the Quran, with LAW added (Haddiths). How do you 'modify' (i.e. moderate) what cannot be modified? That is my issue with Ibn Rushd, or any other 'splinter' you can come up with.

Limpet - I'll go you one better. Use an Islamowhacko 'proof text'(i.e. Kill the Infidel), and turn the Ibn Rushd school loose on that one. Let's see how the 'moderate' interprets the proof text in a moderate fashion.

I'm commenting on some rather old posts here, but there are so many complete misconceptions I feel I have to.

Here's a comment and a half:

Western religious thought, born in Europe and brought to the Americas, is one of toleration and Individual Idealism.

How easily we forget in the West that Christianity is an Eastern religion! Born in Europe??!!!! Yes, and Jesus was born in Luxemburg was he? All this comment displays is a desire to separate the West from the East - we are tolerant, they are not, because we are from different places. Well sorry, but Christianity is from exactly the same place as Islam - Islam was originally thought of as a heretical form of Christianity. The Christians remaining the middle east are those who have deviated far less from the original practises of Christianity. Guess what - they pray with their head touching the ground, like muslims.

Another comment and a half from the same writer:

Muslims find it very difficult to Order their Lives in a pluralistic society

The most pluralistic society in history has to be the Ottoman Empire. While they're greatest rivals the Venetians refused to let any religious buildings apart from churches be built in Venice, in Istanbul religious minorities were free to build whatever they pleased. This Islamic empire provided safe haven for the Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain by the racist Catholic Spaniards; they allowed Orthodox Greeks to express their religion, rather than oppress it like the Venetians because it wasn't Catholic.

It's very easy to look at "outsiders" and have negative views. Someone who dies fighting for their country is a war hero if you're from the same country; if he is from a muslim country he is committing jihad, and is a fanatic. Every year we commemorate those who died in war for us; if we see muslims do this, we think "Fanatics - they glorify death".

Everything is true to someone.

A brute kills for pleasure. A fool kills from hate.

For a better understanding of Islam, there is a good book 'Inside Islam: a Guide for Catholics 100 Questions and Answers' . It is written by a convert from Islam and the answers about Islam will astound you. It compares Christian belief about God with the muslim belief in Allah.
The Koran has different passages referred to as Sura's. Did you know that the Koran teaches:
Sura 3:65-68 - Abraham was a Muslim.
Sura 4:157 - an imposter was crucified (possibly Judas) to make it look like Christ. Christ wasn't really crucified.
Sura 5:17 - it is a blasphemy to say Jeus is God.
Sura 9:29 - fight those who do not believe in Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another but ruthless to unbelievers.
Sura 47:4-6 & Sura 3:157 - The only guarantee of heaven is to be killed fighting for Allah.
Also according to their Hadith, which records words of Mohammed explaining the Koran, Muslims will be given Jews or Christians to kill on the last day. This is the only guarantee of paradise.

The 'Inside Islam' book tells us about Jizya, a special protection tax levied against non muslims in certain muslim countries. It also describes the different sects of Islam and how it is more than a religion, but also a social order.

In your discussions regarding Islam, note that within 40 years, Germany, France and Holland will be predominantly Muslim and that Islam is the fastest growing religion in America.

This book is good reading and will help you with any further discussions on Islam.

Thanks for signing in, . Now you can comment. (Click here should you choose to sign out.)

As you post your comment, please mind our simple comment policy: we welcome all perspectives, but require that comments be both civil and respectful. We also ask that you avoid the extensive use of profanity, racist terms (neither of which we consider civil or respectful), and other boorish language.

We reserve the right to delete any comment, and to prohibit you from commenting on this site, if we feel you have broached this policy. As a courtesy, we will first send you an email noting a violation so you understand the boundaries. This will occur only once, however, and should we ban you from our comment forums we expect that ban to be permanent.

We also will frown upon those who suggest that we ban other individuals for voicing unpopular opinions, should those opinions be voiced in a civil and respectful manner. The point of our comment threads is to provide a forum for spirited though civil and respectful discourse … it is not to provide a forum in which everyone will agree with your point of view.

If you can live by these rules, welcome aboard. If not, then we’re sorry it didn’t work out, and thanks for visiting The Command Post.

URL:
Remember me? YesNo

Comments: