As I understand it, the Saudis attempted to limit the number of haj participants from SA, but the numbers swelled due to many many many who were there illegally.

From past experience, this is always a dangerous ritual. That said, I'm trying to image a similar situation in the USA (Billy Graham Crusade, Who Concert, Papal Visit) where, deaths having previously occurred, the officials in charge would rack up an additional 244 deaths (!) to "God's Will".

Something's lost in the translation.

This is a tragedy. pure and simple. While I might disagree with Islam, no one should have to die like that. my sympathies to the families.

Along those lines, I'm trying to imagine what the reaction would be if anyone prominent in the US/West simply agreed that this particular tragedy was God's will.

I have trouble visualizing the ritual and how it went wrong. Does everyone stand in a circle around several pillars and throw rocks?

Is what caused the stampede rocks (thrown from the other side of the circle) landing among throwers on the opposite side of the circle and people scurrying to get out of the line of fire?

This does sounds like an annual recipe for disaster.

Perhaps 180 degrees of the circle should be roped off.

Limpet,

Your argument is flawed.

1) There are too many muslims there, you couldn't ward off half of the devil.
2) The devil won't be "roundly" stoned which is the idea I think.
3) Traditionally the muslim has his hair shaved off once he has stoned the devil. You'd be cutting off or slowing their lively hood.

On a different note, where do all the stones go which are thrown in the pit. If you imagine that 2 million people throw at least 7 stones each that's over 14 milliion stones. Do the muslims believe that hell is full of stones which they "heat up for the fire" or more likey do they recyle the stones (and do they charge for them?) and get muslim hands to be tainted with stones that have already touched the devil.

I wonder howmany muslims have lost a tooth or an eye in this stone throwing ritchual.

Hmmm. Nah. I was going to comment - from a reasoned perspective - but I somehow can't avoid analogies which will surely get me in trouble.

Can someone tell me what is in Mecca? Just curious.

I wasn't arguing anything. I was inquiring.

Inshallah! "God-willing" is as common in Islamic conversation as "you know?" is in a California conversation. I think it encourages fatalism and a sense of predestination. It is not reason that prevails but fate.

I'll be it wouldn't be as commonly used if Ibn Rushd had prevailed over Al Ghazel.

Apparently they have ramps up to this pit that are like five lane highways. Yes, I wonder what they do with all the stones.

How does it got? He who is without sin cast the first stone? There are one heck of a lot of sinless Hajjis around, I guess.

This country need baseball.

I wasn't arguing anything. I was inquiring.

Inshallah! "God-willing" is as common in Islamic conversation as "you know?" is in a California conversation. I think it encourages fatalism and a sense of predestination. It is not reason that prevails but fate.

I'll be it wouldn't be as commonly used if Ibn Rushd had prevailed over Al Ghazel.

Apparently they have ramps up to this pit that are like five lane highways. Yes, I wonder what they do with all the stones.

How does it got? He who is without sin cast the first stone? There are one heck of a lot of sinless Hajjis around, I guess.

This country needs baseball.

Cap'n - I do not know what all exactly is in Mecca, but it is the holiest city in Islam. I have seen pictures of a giant cube at the center of the Grand Mosque, I believe it was covered in green cloth (the color of Islam). Thousands of birds overhead, but none will land on this cube.

I'm taking someone else's word on this, you are not allowed in Mecca if you're not a Muslim. On that count, they'd like to talk to Spike Lee, who lied about being one so he could film the final scenes of Malcomb X in Mecca. (not nice - rude even)

T8,

Yes, its true, I read that you cannot enter mecca unless you are a muslim. In the old days I believe you used to have to eat Halal beef before entering as well. This was to prevent "Kafirs" or outsiders who didn't believe in this ways of killing animals & si it kept them out.

When they are ready, the whole crowd goes round the "cube" 7 times whilst praying!

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