"Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom." - Albert Einstein

For this reason, the west will ALWAYS have an advantage over communism, totalitarianism and countries ruled by religious fanatics. We create, they destroy. We innovate, they retreat to the 14th century. It's that simple.

When one side can figure out a way to make a single aircraft run 15 different bombing runs on a single sortie, and the other side can only blast away at Buddhist antiquities with 20th century cannons - you don't have to be a genius to see whose cheese will be left out in the wind.

That said, if we truly want to win this war on terrorism, it's simple. Deny people from designated countries access to our educational facilities. A short list would begin with: Red China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, any Palestinians - in short, any country where the people danced with glee on 9/11/01.

No university, no correspondence schools, no flight schools (for God's sake), nothing. Let them go back to what they know best, beating their women to death and whacking off each others' extremities, baking the neighbors' children into pies. Educating a monster does not make him less of one. Indeed, it makes him far more dangerous.

Cal esse cal.

Oh sorry we were wrong, we really do want to be like you guys. Sorry for burning your flag every night for years on TV. Sorry for all the kidnappings, It really wasnt all your fault we live in a dusty god forsaken land with no fun. It is Israel's fault now.

..IGNORANCE IS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP PEOPLE UNDER THE BOOT.EDUCATION IS THE ONLY WAY TO "GET ALONG",IMHO...OF COURSE THERE WILL ALWAY`S BE THE INSANE,NO MATTER WHAT RELIGON OR LACK THEREOF....

I'm not saying we keep people under the boot, certainly not MY boot. If there were decent educations to be had in that part of the world, they wouldn't have to matriculate in the USA.

That part of the world also appears to have more than its share of the insane. All I'm saying is, if they want to hang us, don't teach them how to make rope. Education only helps people 'get along' if they START with the intention of 'getting along'. Thousands of scientists working to secure the weapons necessary to level the West are apparently unaffected by the 'get along' influence of their education.

The Israelis saw it necessary to rocket a car last week containing a major political leader from Hezbolah, one with an engineering degree from the USA. Apparently he wasn't into 'getting along' either.

In some cultures, engineering degrees only come in handy for making car bombs.

small point of clarification:
it's just mechanical engineers that make the car bombs.
civil engineers make the targets.

I agree with t-8 wholeheartedly on that one.
A few weeks ago, Wolf and I were talking about a situation at MIT that was ongoing back in the late 1970s:

Taiwanese students majoring in Physics and Aerospace sciences were being approached by Chinese intelligence officers who were making them offers to get them to go to Beijing after graduating and work for the Chicom gov't.
Students who declined were being threatened with harm to their families in Taiwan, etc., and there were a few complaints lodged with MIT and the Bureau.
I don't know how that whole thing came out, but you have to figure that the Chinese must've gotten at least a few of these students.
How much easier it must be for enemies of the U.S.(or of infidels everywhere) when they can simply send their people to school here without the hassle of having to enlist them after they graduate.

There are several ways foreign students can develop after finshing university:

- They can stay in their host country and work there loyally, providing additional talent and manpower that benefits that country
- They return home, but are an influence that wants to improve the situation in their home country

Both of these groups are of benefit to the host country.

Greetings
Karl Heinz

Karl,

Like, say Isoroku Yamamoto (Harvard, Naval War College)?

You are discussing 2 possible outcomes. We are discussing the third.

There is a saying to the effect "give me a child for the first six years, and after that you will not convert him." A foreign studnt here has already pretty much been molded socially and ideologically. There will perhaps be a desire to bring what is seen as the benefits of our systen(s) back home, but I fear many will see no reason that such things cannot be accomplished under whatever system - including what we know as ruthless dictatorship - exists there.

But there will always be exceptions, and they will have influence, especially over those who see no need for more than cosmetic change. These may not always be beneficial, some will wish to overthrow an existing regime to assume power themselves rather than opening to wider freedoms, but it is to be hoped that the others will prevail eventually.

I'm with John. There's always the hope that a student owes something to the country that educated him, but for most of us, that's just wishful projection.

Yamamoto went back to Japan. He did not fully agree with the samurai leading the war effort, but he was a brilliant tactician. He devised the attack on Midway and envisioned the following onslaught through the Hawaiian islands onto the west coast.

Flight instructors were a bit dumbfounded by the Saudi students who only wanted to learn certain things about piloting a jet. Why didnt't they care about landing? At the time, they could only venture a guess, perhaps call the FBI (who would totally ignore their warnings).

The United States sells a lot of things to foreigners, but one of the most valuable things we have is our freedom to innovate and create. We share our knowledge with the world. Sometimes foolishly, as when massive democrat alms-giver Bernie Schwartz gave separation technology and gyro-stabilization information to the Red Chinese. The Dong Feng can now reach Denver, and in 5 years or less, NYC. Think the Chinese leadership will refrain from using such items? Again, our hopeful projection says they won't, but history says they will. As Dung Zho-Peng said, 'Sign your treaties, build your weapons.'

This is perhaps the greatest legacy of the Clinton administration (besides ugly, incompetent women) - giving our enemies the means to destroy our country. My fervent hope is we don't have to find out (like what happens when you ignore Islamic fundamentalists on the world stage), but my pragmatic side says "Here it comes".

Thanks, Bill!

'No War for Oil!' 'No War for Oil!'

Woops! President Bush is not fighting for Iranian Freedom is he? President Bush is just letting Iranians fight for their freedom? My Mistake! I'll have to let the Anti-War Wackos know that they will have to put away their signs.

Hey Pass the Gas! You can put away your sign now! It's ok! President Bush is not going to send troops to Iran to help the Iranian People, therefore taking credit for helping Iranians get their freedom!

This guys words should be translated into every Islamic language and pamphlets smuggled everywhere. He should be interview over Radio Whatever.

If the war is to be won, it is homegrown talk like this that will sway the great uncommitted mass of Moslems.

Most of them haven't even heard whispers of this kind of thinking.

Ideas have consequences. His ideas are a counterwieght.

would be nice if we did a, Manhattan Project on
alternative fuels and taxed the hell out the
Monster Truck, gas hog, Unsafe at any speed,
Humvee wanabee's SUV's but Hey, the Macho Wemen
feel safer in them. Then we could claim that our
education system can do things and erase the
Shuttle disasters Or the tribal, neanderthal wars
over oil. The US has one foot in the Stone Age but
thinks it is Hi Tech. Waiting for oil or coal
powered cell phones.

VF,

I agree but why stop there? Let's tax the heck out of oil for heating our homes. And let's get rid of these air conditioners. This Freon problem is just that a problem. It's just not right. It's making us too dependant on air conditioners.

Then we have to do something about these 'EVIL' trees polluting the environment. What? You aren't aware that Trees pollute the environment? Ah well.

After we take care of those environmental problems, why not tax the heck out of Big Businesses for using up too much Energy? Ya know that blackout we just had? It has to be THERE fault! These horrible businesses and their gigantic furnaces, their gigantic rows of flourescant bulbs, computers, and so forth. It's just not right for these big businesses to suck up so much of our eletrical power!

We have to save the Great Lakes as well! Someone needs to get out there and shut off the valve so that no one can take any more water out of the Great Lakes. They lossed 11 inches over 3 years! It's horrid! No more water left!

And what's with these 200-300 thousand dollar homes people live in? Whats with homes in general? Isn't your home a bit too big for you? Why not knock down all of these homes and let's start all living in the woods!

I forgot about Generators. Remember generators? People used them to give themselves electricity during the power outage, yet these generators take up tons of oil. People flooded the gas stations stocking up on Oil for their genertors!

Too many people wanting Oil in America!! It's the end of the world!!! Run for the Hills!!! For the love of God, Run! We are all going to die!

You probably got VF's processors all backed up now, Jeff. Smoke is coming out of his ears and he's murmuring "Eviltreesandoilandgeneratorsandweareallgoingtodie..." in a high pitched metallic voice.

Beef is the root of all evil. Cattle create methane gas, punch holes in the ozone, and clog your arteries. In fact animals that ruminate potentially can do the same thing.

In fact, I think all mammals create methane gas from time to time. After we get rid of energy consuming cars and houses, we need to eliminate all mammals from the service of the earth.

You know, now that I think about it, war in the Middle East is easier and far more enjoyable.

F**K, Limpet! Pass the Gas just fell in love with ya! Tryin' to get a fart in edgewise is goin' to be a might tryin' exercise. I'd suggest we all get sphincter tucks, but Pass'll proly have nothin' butt excuses. So much for MY O-zone.

In fact animals that ruminate potentially can do the same thing

Hey now, there's a thought! Let's ban meditation 'cos it's bad for the environment!

Well, when I mentioned rumination I was thinking in simply biological terms rather than in contemplative terms, but you are of course right any mammal that metabolizes generates methane gas more than likely whether he meditates or not. We are faulty in our analysis. Stopping contemplation won't do it since the animal generation of methane gas is not confined to rumination. Only stopping mammals from eating will bring it to a stop.

We must stop all mammals from eating to save the environment and civilization as we know it.

After that I think we can tax monster trucks and people who drive SUV's (often people who fight terrorism in their cute misbegotten and neanderthalic way).

Now back to the subject. I think the Islamic Martin Luthor should get some press and kept far, far away from guys like VF.

By the way all this thinking has made me hungry...anyone for a Quarterpounder?

Torpedo, you shouldnt worry so much, the international students didnt take away your spot in the university...it was your ignorance. In preparing your argument, assuming you are Conservative, you didnt back up your buddy. I mean shit, I guess you are right, Afghanis shouldnt be educated in the USA. Especially if there name is Hamid Karzi. I am sure Bush knew better installing him. (He was elected after being appointed)

I am living at a place devoted to housing international students at UC Berkeley. I can tell you that international students leave here with a profound respect for our way of life, our diversity, and our education system. These are the cream of the crop from their home countries and they go back and tell others the truth of who we are. Most come back and become the elite of their countries. They should not be prohibited from coming here. Most of you are so hypocritical. You dont want people to come here and gain an education but at the same time you mock how backward and uncivilized they are. How can one expect the situation to change if we do not let any of them leave their country, gain an education, and return. I guess some of you just dont want that. For coming on here and talking about how you 'just dont understand' how they can be the way they are is more fun.

Let the rebuttals begin. I will get the University of Buffalo story. Maybe the MIT story again.

However, the nation state, nationalism and boundaries are human constructed. Someone born in a certain territory. Shit, write him off. He cant come here. Limited by the borders prescribed by someone before him. Limited by the actions of someone else. Guilty by association. I am sure all of us would be ok with that. We would expect to stay in that country without leaving. "Veil of Ignorance" theory. Human Values exist outside of American Values.

"How to build a bomb" is on the internet. Governments sell weapon technology.

No material thing has ever been completely sealed. Same with the US.

John, since I'm certainly NOT a conservative, I guess you're the ignorant one here, but hey, don't feel bad, I've seen your kind jump to conclusions with jet packs before.

And I can't tell you how pleased I am to find that human values exist outside of American values, just as amazed as I am to learn that (sniff) hate is not a family value. (wow)

I was never suggesting there was some way to keep the rest of the world fat, dumb and happy in Cameltopia by hemeretically sealing the county in tupperware. And yes, you can make an H-bomb on the internet - best of luck to you.

All I'm saying is: don't invite the Nazis over for Rocket Classes. Don't share gyro-stabilization and stage separation technology with the Chinese - and don't share VX recipes with the Iraqis.

I know this awful nation-state thing has got your panties in a knot, but don't hold your breath - it's not going away any time soon. People are touchy and terittorial and I don't want Syrians waltzing into Lawrence-Livermore any more than the Sauds want you waltzing into Mecca. People are funny that way - yes, far more stupid and bound to crude human constucts than a high-minded You, but armed with sharp knives.

No, John, we can't keep knowledge and information all to ourselves and I don't intend to keep it from nations (simple-minded human-construct) that aren't hell-bent on flying our planes into our buildings.

Much as it is your duty to paint everyone else as a raving xenophobe, if there's a better way to sort friend from foe, I'm all ears. My guess is a high-minded free-thinker like yourself will note the subtle difference between assuming all technology will eventually be accessible on the internet and holding a yard sale at Los Alamos.

nice very nice

If you understand, things are as they are. If you do not understand, things are as they are.

Any certainty is a delusion.

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