And here we go.
If Abbas steps down, I wonder who will succeed him. Could it be Dahlan, perhaps, who seems to be much more in tune with Arafat than Abbas? According to the news we've been getting out of there, Abbas has opposed Arafat on some issues, whereas Dahlan has been known to consult with Yassir before attending the odd Roadmap function.

Abbas has a lot of pressure on him from both sides, and there's really no telling at this point exactly how much stress is coming from Arafat's side. Maybe enough to make him want to quit? According to a plan of Arafat's, maybe?

So let's say he quits, and his replacement is an Arafat puppet. Then we're back to square 1, dealing directly with Arafat, middleman notwithstanding.

Meanwhile, the Israelis have been hard at work fulfilling their part of the bargain, while the Palestinians haven't even put a dent in theirs(a truce is not part of the deal: Disarmament and disbanding of Palestinian terror groups is). Yet the Arafat bunch is demanding that the Israelis release still more prisoners.

Hmmm!

This is obviously leading to Arafat squeezing everything he can out of the Israelis, abusing their good faith, before the so- called truce is over, then taking advantage of both the addition of the released prisoners to his numbers and the R & R + replenishment time the truce got them. Plus, with Israeli troops pulled out of a lot of a few hotspots, the terrorists can work in their own pressure free environment to set up the next "campaign".

We can probably expect a heavy terror onslaught whenever the truce ends, prematurely or otherwise.
When and if that happens, the EU and their UN buddies can just keep their mouths shut, because Israel will have a job to do with license to get it done any way they see fit.

**a lot of a few? Call it "a few".

I tell you what, nothing makes people want to follow you as a leader more than threatening to quit. I know he's trying to pressure for more authority, but he's really going about it the wrong way. He needs to deal forcibly is Isreal, and it his own people. I fear, however, that this incident has already cost him his ability to lead Palestine. Until a Palestinian ruler can stand up to his own people, he can't stand up to Isreal.

I tell you what, nothing makes people want to follow you as a leader more than threatening to quit. I know he's trying to pressure for more authority, but he's really going about it the wrong way. He needs to deal forcibly is Isreal, and it his own people. I fear, however, that this incident has already cost him his ability to lead Palestine. Until a Palestinian ruler can stand up to his own people, he can't stand up to Isreal.

Julian, do you honestly believe that Yassir Arafat and his people really want to settle peacefully on the West Bank and Gaza?
They want the Jews out of the country altogether, and they are using the Roadmap to Peace to get as many concessions out of Israel as they can while giving little or nothing back. As soon as they figure they've gotten as much as Ariel Sharon is going to give up, they'll be back at it with a vengeance.
Abbas is only there because Sharon and GWB would not deal with Arafat any more, and once his being PM has served its temporary purpose, look for groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah and the al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade to come up with more reasons to terrorize.
They do not want the West Bank and Gaza, they want all of Israel.

Seth,

I completely agree, Arafat and his 'people' have nothing to gain from peace, and would likely lose all their political power. However, the average Palestinian would like to wake up in the morning not worrying about an Isreali military strike, and the average Isreali would like to wake not worrying about being blown up by a suicide bomber. The majority of the population of both nations could and would coexist peacefully. Abbas, even being a shadow puppet, has been given enough power that he can effect the future lives of his people, if he chooses to to become a real leader. People back those they think will win, and so far Abbas has not shown any signs that he has the determinate or strength it will take to win.

Julian

According to the Roadmap agreement, Abbas' only relevant responsibility is to disarm and disband the terrorist organizations who claim to represent the Palestinian cause. He refused to use force to do so, saying he would fulfill his part of the deal through peaceful dialogue.
The terrorist groups flat out told him they would neither disarm nor disband. Period. End of discussion.

These terrorists are Arafat's people. He has been a terrorist himself for over 40 years. He wants them to stay armed and wants the Jews gone. He will not give Abbas any help.

These terrorists have also shown that they haven't one iota of regard for human life, their fellow Palestinians' included, and that they'll slaughter anybody who tries to interfere with them. They are not reluctant "freedom fighters", they are people who enjoy killing other people.

So the only way Abbas is going to disarm them is, to quote an expression used by fellow gun owners, to "pry the weapons out of their dead, cold hands."

This means more than merely verbal leadership, it means putting together an armed coalition and taking the weapons away from the terrorists by force. That would be bloody, but it is literally the only way he'll be able to fulfill his part of the Roadmap's first level.

Unfortunately, Julian, no matter how much we wish there was a peaceful way, there are times when certain people do not leave that option.

Seth, preach on brother...

Julian said "However, the average Palestinian would like to wake up in the morning not worrying about an Isreali military strike, and the average Isreali would like to wake not worrying about being blown up by a suicide bomber."

Yes, Julian, but according to recent polls a large percentage of the palestinians still support the intifada. They cant have it both ways, intifada and peace. They need to stop using terrorism and stop supporting the terrorists in their midst and stop the damn culture of terrorist worship that thye have built up.

I guess its easy for us all to sit back and point out the problems and, and the steps that need to be taken are clear to most people who have followed the conflict, but reality of the situation on the ground is that the Palestinans do not have a leader that will do what needs to be done. There are guys like Omar Korsou that I would like to see as Palestinian leaders, but the radicals would not deal with him either.

The Palestinians by following Arafat and his culture of terror, have simply dug themselves in to a hole that they can not dig themselves out of. Any future Palestinian leader that tries to stomp out the Palestinain terror groups will risk something like a civil war between palestinian factions. I dont mind that happening.... at least it takes some of the pressure of Israel.

Call me a pessimist if you want, but as long as the ingrained culture of Islamofacism exists in the middle east, I doubt very much that there will be peace.

Well Said, USF.

N Korea warns of nuclear war threat
From correspondents in Seoul
July 10, 2003

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,6729275%255E401,00.html

N Korea warns of nuclear war threat
From correspondents in Seoul
July 10, 2003

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,6729275%255E401,00.html

Back when Ireland was getting independence from Britain, the IRA refused to sign on unless Ulster joined the Republic, but the clear majority of the population in Ulster (being Protestant and descended primarily of Scots) wanted to remain in the UK. Finally, Michael Collins essentially ignited a civil war between the Republic and the IRA so Ireland could live in peace with the UK and hold onto about 80% of Ireland.

The Palestinians still don't have a "Collins" who is willing to wage a civil war against the radicals in order to gain the 80% to 90% of the West Bank and Gaza that the Israelis would now be willing to cede to the PA. Consequently, they're stuck with essentially none of West Bank.

Back when Ireland was getting independence from Britain, the IRA refused to sign on unless Ulster joined the Republic, but the clear majority of the population in Ulster (being Protestant and descended primarily of Scots) wanted to remain in the UK. Finally, Michael Collins essentially ignited a civil war between the Republic and the IRA so Ireland could live in peace with the UK and hold onto about 80% of Ireland.

The Palestinians still don't have a "Collins" who is willing to wage a civil war against the radicals in order to gain the 80% to 90% of the West Bank and Gaza that the Israelis would now be willing to cede to the PA. Consequently, they're stuck with essentially none of West Bank.

Back when Ireland was getting independence from Britain, the IRA refused to sign on unless Ulster joined the Republic, but the clear majority of the population in Ulster (being Protestant and descended primarily of Scots) wanted to remain in the UK. Finally, Michael Collins essentially ignited a civil war between the Republic and the IRA so Ireland could live in peace with the UK and hold onto about 80% of Ireland.

The Palestinians still don't have a "Collins" who is willing to wage a civil war against the radicals in order to gain the 80% to 90% of the West Bank and Gaza that the Israelis would now be willing to cede to the PA. Consequently, they're stuck with essentially none of West Bank.

Just like we said when they were first talking about the 'road map', the only way it can proceed, is to kill all the hamas and other terrorists. Period.

Nothing has changed and nothing will, until they are dead.

Just like we said when they were first talking about the 'road map', the only way it can proceed, is to kill all the hamas and other terrorists. Period.

Nothing has changed and nothing will, until they are dead.

Just like we said when they were first talking about the 'road map', the only way it can proceed, is to kill all the hamas and other terrorists. Period.

Nothing has changed and nothing will, until they are dead.

Just like we said when they were first talking about the 'road map', the only way it can proceed, is to kill all the hamas and other terrorists. Period.

Nothing has changed and nothing will, until they are dead.

I agree Jeff. There is no compromising with someone that believes that their god has commanded them to kill you. I just think it would be better to see Palestinians do that dirty work themselves.

Its partly so that the next generation of Islamofascists do not tell stories of how they were "cheated" by Jews, breeding more resentment in the future, and leaving a door open for Islamofascist revisionist history all over again. Islamist wars do enter phases of long lulls, but often flare back up in the future in more violence after a future generation of jihadis are brainwashed with BS stories of how their Islamic heroes were cheated or defeated "unfairly" (in this case, with help of the Great Satan) and rekindle the jihad with hopes of "setting things straight" with Allahs help and guidance.

Its also partly because they have to accept that their own people are against them, and acting aginst them, and they do not have the full support of the "ummah." Seth wrote something similar to this when I suggested that we learn a few tricks from the Israelis in dealing with the Iraqis who were targetting US troops.

And finally, they desperately need to change the culture of Islamofascism... that change can come only from within. The Palestinians need to take stock of whats more important to them in life, breeding their kids to worship past terrorists, proudly offer them up as the next wave of shaheeds, or peace so they actually watch their childrem grow up to become priductive members of society. Whats needed is a Palestinian leader that will stop the Mullahs of terror, kick some of the Imams out of the Mosques when they preach jihad, and then legislate, and more importantly, ACT against those that are involved in instigation, and recruitment for terror.

The last one is a hard one, and its debatable if the people brainwashed for years on a diet of Islamofascism and bloodlust are in deed capable of the reform that is required of them for there to be any peace. So that brings us back full circle to what I mentioned earlier...

Golda Mier once said "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." And that is still as vaild as ever.

One lil clarification... the above is "preferable," as it would stand a better chance of leading to a lasting peace, but if given lack of options by failure to act on the part of Palestinians themselves, then I would fully back the Israelis to wipe out all the Islamofascist terror lovers themselves.

Arafat, pre 2000= PLO leader
Arafat, post 2000= Terroist leader

After the failed negotiations between him and Barak, Arafat made a conscious decision. He was going to make the lives of Israelis as misrable as possible. He did not want Palestine and Israel to live side by side. He wanted Israel out of the Middle East. Therefore, until he is gone nothing will happen in the form of an agreement between Israel and Palestine (in terms of two states). Abbas knows this and Sharon know this. Sharon wanted to kill Arafat for this reason. Right now they are just trying to stop the bloodshed until Arafat is gone and set up a decent framework.

That's what snipers are for.

That's what snipers are for.

mis(e)rable

It seems people like to link:
Arafat, Bin Laden-terroist: Damn Arabs
Hitler-fascist: Damn Caucasians??????????

See how ridiculous it is.

That's what snipers are for.

Damn!
That rep came from refresh, getting through the "glitch".

Ouch! Call off the snipers Seth! I dont want to get caught in the crossfire.

John... Arafat is finally being sidelined and hopefully soon, he will die a slow and painfull death. As for the Arafat/Binny/Hitler connection, they all wanted Jews dead. Nobody is blaming all Arabs here. Islamofascism tho', has a lot to answer for.

And what's wrong with the snipers? Arafat needs a good sniping. The sooner he gets sniped, in fact, the better it will be for all concerned. He and Abu Nidal can hang hang out together and swap tall terror tales.

Eliminate one "hang", there.

USF....You make a good point....if it comes from within, it can have much larger effect on the future and peace in that region.

Wouldn't it be nice if Arafatass was sniped and the Palestinians were credited for it?? Hmmm...might speed things up a little if it was done right.

I wonder who 'wingnut' #2 would be? Couldn't be worse than Arafat, could he? Of course, if they took out #1 thru #10, that might eliminate potential problems.

LOL... nothing would make me happier than to see Arafat sniped by another Palestinian. Then they could maybe work down the list... Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hexbullah, Fatah/tanzim and all its offshoots... so many terror lovers.. what a target rich environmemt for Seths snipers. :)