How do you train/ retrain these people?
Many years ago i served as a British "Bobby" back in the days when they didn't wear pullovers and carry Mace. I saw a sign on the side of an American police car, it said "Protect and Serve", I can only hope that this statement reflects the over arching ethos in the training of the new Iraqi force.

The Army would be well led, by starting to send young Officers and Cadets to West Point/ Sandhurst, to learn not about tryanny and subjugation but Service and Leadership. Many of the leaders of the old Iraqi army were competent men, they can be so again, this time with genuine pride and the respect rather than revulsion of the world.

Ubique

Who, exactly, is training the Iraqi police?
According to the stuff on the cadets who were killed the other day, their instructor was an Iraqi. Are there people supervising from British or American law enforcement agencies?

Seth, damn it! Once again... I read that same story, and I got the same impression, but maybe he was just the 'Information Specialist'. If we are dealing with two different 'social climates' here, as has been suggested by others at various times, I would hope they are being trained by Iraqis, and by that I mean, the 'GOOD COP' in the GoodCop/BadCop equation. Sounds like all they've had in the past has been the BadCop.

Dave
If the instructors are Iraqi, I still think they could use some classes with veteran cops from L.A.(these guys have been dealing with organized, heavily armed drug gangs and if you've ever seen downtown L.A. at its worst....) and New York- Older, experienced N.Y. cops, in my experience, are a class act who could teach the Iraqi instructors(hell, anybody!) a thing or two.

WASHINGTON -- With American costs and casualties mounting in Iraq, the Bush administration is showing new interest in putting NATO in charge of the military occupation as a way of scaling back the U.S. troop commitment, U.S. and NATO officials say.

http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/bal-te.troops09jul09,0,1350096.story?coll=bal-news-nation

Jacques

Taking the entire article into consideration, I can't see this coming to fruition anytime soon. The inherent diplomatic issues will take a long time to hash out.
The only reason France and Germany would want to become involved would be for revenues from reconstruction and renewal of the deals they had with Saddam Hussein, and unless the French agreed completely to accept the U.S. as the boss over there(that would mean none of the usual "we object! zees must go before zee UN!" crap- just follow orders), we might never see the NATO thing happen.

Not to mention that france pulled out of NATO in 1966 and really has no say in NATO decisions.
You shouldn't think of NATO as having any input from France, it has problems to be sure, but France is out of the picture, and probably even more so now. I think Bush knows what he's doing as far as NATO is concerned. If Nato fails, The Canada will just be stuck with NORAD, as we don't have a voice in the UN to speak of

Which explains, at least in part, why France is so eager to start an EU version of NATO.

Very true Seth, it seems to be the political move he's trying to make, and bush is signing up NATO members at the same time.
Interesting politics going on.

It appears to look like this German-France handholding is almost gaurantied to cause USA bases to move out of Germany, and into poland who is signed on to NATO, and maybe some others who recently signed on to NATO as well

Ubique,
I meant to comment, You, being a former Bobbie, I guess your have that knee grip take down maneuver down pat, huh? LOL The death grip

Iraqi 'spy' arrested in suburban US
From correspondents in Chicago
July 10, 2003
A SUBURBAN Chicago man was arrested today on charges of secretly gathering information on Iraqi opposition figures as an agent of Saddam Hussein's intelligence service.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,6729294%255E401,00.html

Bubba,
i must have done the wrong training course, the only knees I used to grip were my own, to stop them shaking from fear! Then you put on your brave face and said " Good evening sir, can I help you?". sometimes you remembered as you were being pounded into the pavement that your trucheon, or better still a four cell torch applied very smartly to the inside of the knee is one of the best put downs known to man.

The only death grip I know is practiced in the dentists chair, he leans over you, shining steel in hand, you lie there sweating dry mouthed with fear but still dribbling, you reach forward and grab (gently) the family jewels, in what I can only describe as a death grip, "We're not going to hurt each other are we?".

Bubba you're correct France pulled out of NATO or at least threatened too. However, they are back in now and have been for some time. They were one of the primary countires when I was working the NATO ACCS Program in 1998 and 1999. The company that won the contract, and it had to be a NATO county contractor, was a team of then Hughes Aircraft and Thomson CSF. They were based and and headquartered in Paris. Also take a look at the NATO site and you will see France listed as a NATO member.

OAE
they still have membership, and have had some nato contracts, but they aren't a voting member.
Thats one of the issues bush pulled on chirac over Turkey, nato voted to supply turkey despite Frances objections.
Turns out that Turkey made up it's own mind later on, but it showed France who was who in NATO, and Chirac didn't like it, did he

I should add, turkey declined from the NATO deal because of preasure from France, and membership into the EU. Seems they have none of the above, plus they tossed a few billion of American money away as well

You know, the more I read about stuff the French have been up to these last few years, the name Jacques Chirac conjures up an image of Snidely Whiplash.

I know what you mean seth, I never gave it much though before either, but hell, the guy is a real snake, and he's put Europe in a very bad spot.

I was reading some economic news today, I don't see how the IMF is going to be able to suport Europe unless they make some drastic changes.

Not a place to invest anything in, thats for sure, in fact, If I had any intrest there, I'd be yanking it out.

Projections for 2004 is still for increasing debt, and thats no good. It's like burning half your money investing in a Euro market. Good thing Blair didn't sell out the Lb sterling to that Euro Idea

Here is something the new Iraqi Police can use for practice:

FROM: AHMED HUSSEIN
EMAIL:ahmed_hussein@shuf.com

Dear Friend,
How are you today? I am Ahmed Hussein, the son of Saddam Hussein the
former president of Iraq.
I am writting you because I have the belive that you can help me in this my
present condition.
During the American/British war on us, I was opportuned to take away my
father's money which he saved in underground save
which is:80 million us daollars. Now it is in security company in
switzerland.
I want you to help me have this money in your own account before the US
government will discover it and I will lose it.
This is how we will do it:
35% of the money for you
50% for me
15% for the expenses incured.
I will like you to provide these informations of yours for processing of
essential documents in your name.
1. your full name and address
2. Your telephone and fax number
3. Your age and occupation
4. Your Bank account where the money will be transfered and the bank name
Please I count on you to help me on this, if the money is transfered to
your account,i will com to your country and open accont and put my share.
Dont see my mail to you as a junk.write me back fast so that we conclude
this fast.
I await for your immediate reply.
Yours Sincerely,
Ahmed Hussein.
Email:ahmed_hussein@shuf.com

Fred Boness....That's FUNNY!

:)

RE: Fred Boness at July 9, 2003 10:28 PM

I ran into a web site a long time ago, where a guy played the whole ordeal out until it came time to pay the money...then blew the guy away with an excellent reason not to send the money. I'll try to dig it up.

Those emails are hot and heavy out there, I've gotten quite a few. They have nicknamed those guys the "Lads From Lagos" because most of the emails come from there. Also from Senegal, the Ivory Coast and some other countries, mostly in Africa.
One of the commenters on Gweilo Diaries gave me this website, that outlines the whole thing and even has a bunch of the emails on it. A good "read":

www.scamorama.com

I looked up shuf.com and found they are California based serving Arabic/English users in the Mideast.

Well i think the US Administration seeks desperate troops to get out of Iraq because it's increasing not very pleasant there.
This limits the options wich countries will send troops i think., because they risk to die.
There has been already an NATO delegation sent to Iraq, the polish troops are only some polish troops, just 2500 from these 8000 are polish. The rest are NATO troops from spain, danmark and other supporter of these occupation. So the NATO is already there ..
Seems some people in Washington missed that somehow.

There is practically no way Germany or France would send troops without an UN backing. The NATO alone is simply not enough. We have still quite a lot deployed in Kosovo and Afghanistan, so we are still busy to mop up what was left over after the US troops vanished almost complete.
Not again, this becomes annoying.

The UN is the Place to deal with the problems the US -Troops have in Iraq, not the NATO.

It's quite cowardly to occupy an Country practically unilateral and after you see you can't handle it alone, to scream for troops who should do the job for you.
You've occupied Iraq, now learn to deal with the aftermath.

Good luck.

Nobody;

I think you're just sore, because your country's mercenary attitude("we can't let those people overthrow Saddam, what will happen to our oil deals then?") lost them some lucrative oil opportunities, and now, since they weren't part of the Coalition of the Willing, they're also shut out of some fat, juicy rebuilding contracts.
Your country, like France, thought that Saddam's murder and torture of his own people were okay, as long as the cash was flowing.
So Germany gambled. You made the same bet France did, and you both lost.
Oh, well.
I used to work in a casino, and I've seen losers come and go. There are good losers, and there are sore losers.
Don't be a sore one.
Keep a stiff upper lip, there's a good lad.
Maybe if Iran or Syria needs an attitude adjustment, we'll let you gamble again, and maybe next time you'll make the right bet.

nobody, I wait with much anticipation the withdrawal of US Forces from germany and will rejoice in the economic downturn your country will experience because of it. Perhaps you too will experience the joy of having to take a wheel barrel to the market to buy a loaf of bread as your illustrious ancestors did. What fun!!!

Nobody,

maybe you can see that NATO is more credible now than those cowardly, greedy supporters of the UN.
Possible, you see Germany and France, the only other countries that can MAYBE put together perhaps 2,000 troops, if those two countries were not so broke, cannot support the UN without the Americans.

It is shameful to Germany and France the greed displayed; It is embarrassment also that country like Poland can make better effort and show better strength especially after oppression from both Russia and Germany together. You should hide in shame Nobody.

Vor Polen steigt und nimmt zurück, was Deutschland von uns so vielen Jahren gestohlen hat. Es ist Zeit, die wir auf den Schweinen spucken

Nobody,and Blair Fan,

The troops deployed from NATO countries have not been deployed under the auspices of NATO, they are National contingents.
It would be well nigh impossible for ARRC or any other NATO formation to deploy, bearing in mind the differing political views taken by the member States of NATO.

This coalition is a relatively ad hoc affair, which in some ways is a major strength, it is a coalition of the willing, Nations have volunteered (of course they hope to benefit, either by gaining the approval of the US, or by the long term benefits to us all of having a stable and peaceful Iraq), the contingents have been sent by Governments wanting to suceed.

You mentioned Afghanistan to my certain knowledge the US still has considerable assets in that theatre.
Did I hear a whine about the Americans pulling out of Kosovo. Why the hell did they have to go into Kosovo in the first place, where were the "Europeans"?. I will admit to being a European because my people's island sits off the shore of the mainland, it strikes me that there is a very unpleasant life form lurking under some of the rocks in Europe, these creatures cannot or will not act on their own behalf, they whine for the Americans to put everything right, and then complain bitterly when crisis is over. Perhaps "Europe", and European opinions would be given more credence and respect if just for once they/ we put our money were our mouths are.
Become a super state, adopt the responsibilities of a superstate, and perhaps people will take note.
I'm not holding my breath.

Ubique

Is Ian Duncan Smith the son of the Ian Smith of Rhodesia fame?

Seth,
Not according to his mum!!

Bad news coming guys, I believe you took some pain today up North, I don't know whether Alan has got he word yet.

While I'm here, a question, I have read with some amusement and bemusement, a small bit of the Hydrogen Helium battle. As a newcomer I have no vision of what sparked of this feud, I can only guess that it relates(d) to the discovery of those trailers a while back. It now all semms to have turned into a you said this, no I didn't, did, didn't...
might it be an idea to put the personalities thing to one side and for Anthony to put forward his case
relating to the original thread (?) and for the matter to be discussed in open forum? Perhaps we have lost sight of the original issue? Perhaps we might ask Alan to open a spot/ thread where this matter could be debated, on the issues and facts , where the house can then decide, a true debate, I suspect that if my guess as to the original topic is correct, then the subject is worthy of a mature debate. We can keep ranting on the other threads.

On another subject how do you guys manage to keep the hours that you do and still survive? Mrs Ubique's little boy likes to get 8 hours of sleep per day (likes to but only rarely achieves it).

Guys,

I hope that Nobody comes back to check this:

Nobody! Germany, right? I'm like, dooin' a study here, and I'd like to gather a wee bit of demographic information from you if you don't mind. I'll preface it with a little info so that you know where I'm comin' from...
There's no way that you folks want ANY of your Euro friends to be goin' anywhere soon. Except to bed. Matter of fact, if you're blonde (Q. 1 - Are you?), blue-eyed (Q. 2 - Are you?), married (Q. 3 - Are you?) and born in Germany (Q. 4 - Were you?) I'd suggest you start spendin' A LOT of time with your spouse, in bed. And I'm talkin' doin' somethin' besides sleepin'. WHY am I askin'? Because by the year 2100, there won't be anyone left in Germany with those feautures, at the rate you aren't havin' kids! Fact of the matter is, we're all in the same boat! So, while you are kickin' back, blowin' smoke out your flute (or, might as well be) watchin' us clean up YOUR mess (and yes, part of the little 'problem' is YOUR problem), we're dwindlin' away our NATURAL resources as well. I might add, I remember the 50+ thousand we gave to the cause (not one I was really hepped up about BTW) 30+ years ago, seein' as how at the time, half of your ass was still parked in CommieLand.
Advice - Shut up, and have some kids. Be a father. Tell 'em the facts. Your little society is dwindlin', and you've got NOBODY to blame but yourself.

Now, if I could only find - OnlyNow, and NobodyWanttoKnow...

Dave Dubé : C'mon dude... y'all know that ANSWERING the replies to his post is not Nobodys strong point. He seems to prefer posting a collection of drive by's and the occasional "hit and run."

Nobody: "The UN is the Place to deal with the problems the US -Troops have in Iraq, not the NATO."

The problem is, the UN refused to deal with the problem of Saddam in the first place. Just like how the UN could not deal with the Balkan war. Thats why we find ourselves in the predicament that we are in today.

Nobody said, "It's quite cowardly to occupy an Country practically unilateral and after you see you can't handle it alone, to scream for troops who should do the job for you."

Nobody....you are the most ignorant ass I've seen on here since your last post. Cowardice, is to use your position in the UN to allow a dictator to kill millions of people because you are making money off of him. Then stand in the way of anyone with the integrity to do something about the tyrant. The UN is full of people such as yourself. Self serving scum.

Nobody said, " You've occupied Iraq, now learn to deal with the aftermath."

Despite your and your cronies' attempts to undermine our honest efforts, we will succeed. As you and your Sodom loving buddies sit on the side line, please observe how real men do something to help mankind.

Nobody said, "Good luck."

You don't want me to have GOOD LUCK.....that would be me going to work and finding you in my office. Good luck for me, bad luck for you.

I know there are some good Germans out there. I talked to several of them back when Germany was geeking us at the UN. They were ashamed of what their leaders were doing. I'm sure they are equally ashamed of the vocal scum like you that lives under their bridges.

ROTFLMAO!! Jeff B, GOOD LUCK! And I mean that! LOL.

JeffB, MY MAN! ROFLMAO! Headline - - JEFFB FINDS NOBODY IN OFFICE Subtitled, Nobody stomped off

OR ON!!!

All I can say is, "It's definitely a good thing nobody got f**ked in the ass !!!!!!!"