Populist hogwash. The ability of Islamists to deceive themselves as to US intentions is legendary. If the US had wanted Baghdad in stone age condition...

I think these views are those of the Iraqis who feel that rather than blame their countrymen who are committing sabotage on their infrastructure, they blame us.
Considering the news we get of those Iraqis who profess their happiness and gratitude over our having overthrown the Husseins and our working to help them get their country back on line in a more "all the people" representative manner, I get the feeling that this kind of news is gathered and built up by reporters or editors with just the "touch" of bias in the other direction.

I feel like I'm going a little nuts here---doesn't the second paragraph say it is the same hardships as under the Hussein regime??? Somebody interpret for me, will ya?

...the road is hard and rocky,believe in your faith.The truth will set these souls free.Let there be no illusions we will not falter in our cause,for it is just,follow what in your heart you know is right.Always remember that there are those that will try and distort the truth,but dont listen...GOD BLESS!!!

"backbreaking hardships in the searing 50 degree celsius"

WoW! what wonderfull creative writing skills! LMAO
I guess it sounds better than "lazy people sitting around eating free food while plotting the next RPG attack."

...Bubba you hit the nail squarely on the head.Every time there`s a picture,thats all you see people just standing around,trash,debris laying around,hell give`m a broom and sweep the dang street!

Anybody take a look around on the Islam Online site? What I found disturbing was the faux reasonableness. It is slick and designed to appeal to western society. Hence the women writers, interviews with women scientists, etc - none of which would exist under Sharia.

Check out http://www.islamonline.net/English/Views/2003/06/article10.shtml where the erudite female author trashes the Arab leaders - for not doing more to defend Saddam.

How to deal with the presence of people like this in an open society such as Britain? Hmm... suddenly I'm a lot less bothered by the Eschalon system... if MI5 doesn't have a bead drawn on these folks, I'm sure the CIA does...

yeah and she interviews people who lived in an "elite" neighborhood? I apreciate her putting that in because it accidently clues the savy in to the fact that she interviewed people who had a stake in the former regime.

propaganda extrordinare

Im bemused by people like her who seemingly have no soul, evidenced by her bemoaning the loss of a mass murderer, who robbed his country blind and kept it in poverty and abject terror.

Well seems the enemies Stategy work far better than the US Strategy so far.
It's nonesense the US are responsible for that, even to me as well known Bush hater seems that to be an idotic Statement.
But the enemies Strategy work as this Article prove.

Not only Baghdad has almost no electricity, they succesful blamed the US Troops for that.
Where is an Mr Bremer to counter that? All i hear is the call for more Troops.
As if they could fix the lost battle for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi People.

This battle is already lost, no it's not about electricity in Baghdad that make me believe this, it's about broken promises, about the lack of democracy in Iraq, even the Basic kind of Democracy like muncipal self organisation.
It's about the lack of real progress.

The US Troops (and administration like Mr Bremer) want to control and rule everything. They behave like occupators, not like someone who want to help up Iraqi People on their own feets.

It's hopeless. How hopeless it is show the today incident where a aproximatly 17 year old Boy killed an US Soldier in the University with an point blank shoot in his neck.
Do you really believe that was an Saddam sympathizer?
I personally can't believe that.

The US Troops are not welcome in Iraq, and they would do better to lay all responsibilities in the hand of the United Nations and withdraw coordinated all US Troops from Iraq wich have to be replaced with UN Peacekeeper.

This would be a solution to the existing problems.
But i think the US administration are all die hards, it's not their skin they have to trade.

It's still an fortune in Oil to get in Iraq, and if you ever had questions about why Poland send Troops, this Article will answer that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3043330.stm

things will get better when the Japanese troops arrive. They know how to make things neat and tidy.

i see em on tv every night driving around in toyotas and listenting to radios and carrying ak47s..
not my kind of stone age.
look at parts of africa.. that is stone age.

Nobody

I read your BBC article. I can tell which side of the aisle the reporter was coming from, as practically every sentence in the article repeated "for the oil".
So Poland says that its primary motive in joining the Coalition of the Willing was to obtain access for their energy companies to Iraqi oil.
So what's your point?
The fact that they did participate in Operation Enduring Freedom surely entitles them to access to Iraqi commodities, at least moreso than non participants like Germany, Russia and France.
Again, what's your point?

If, as a lot here proclaim, it's about hearts and minds.Then there is a fundamental fault. All here have pointed to how the Iragi's blame the US for everything, yet are reluctant to blame themselves for a significant portion. Some of you point to broken promises. I don't think that is an accurrate assement.

I think some of you fall into the same trap as everyone from the west tends to, by putting western thinking into a situation where the people don't think anything like a westerner.

Here is an example. It is ok to lie to a non muslim. You just don't count....Period.
It is ok to lie to a muslim if you don't follow on with specific words of contrition and promise of honour. This must also be done on your home turf (aka home) and not in the other persons turf (his home). The reason is simple. On his turf you are under duress and therefore it is acceptable to lie your way out. On your turf, you stake your honour as you are in control. The onus is never on the guest and non muslims are rarely given the same guest status. Example: You are considered an infidel as defined by whatever reason.... No matter what you are told, it is canceled out because you are an invader. No lost honour with god, no matter what is done outside the preachings of the karan. That icludes slitting your throat just outside the door.

This was an example of how complex the interaction of individuals have with their society. There are hundreds of other examples of how this culture works. You can never be in a position of control if you don't understand the complexities.

Now throw into the mix your regular malcontents and it's a minefield you are walking. The middle eastern mentality only respects strength regardless of the social manners presented as a front. You show compassion and a lot of people will assume this is a display of weakness. You lose respect. Sounds stupid, but again it's a different culture from the west.

Here is another quick one. Arabs don't trust other Arabs.... Why in god's name would they trust you.
Yes this was a bit of a generalization but it is vallid when dealing with a populace.

Terrible life under the heel of the Americans as reported by the same asshats who told the Arab world Saddam was kicking American ass while Baghdad was bombed to rubble.

Americans in the "American Century" are already well-versed in the undying "gratitude" of 3rd Worlders who would rather live, eat and sleep lies because it's the only way to rationalize their life and their position in the ass-end of the universe.

Is anyone surprised that Islam Online has no love to lose for the American intervention? It only makes me wish we could Saddam back (albeit without his nuclear teeth) so he can boil, chip, slice his countymen. Then it might refresh their extremely short memories as to whether they're suffering "the same hardships".

One positive in that article was that the children were studying. That's one forward step. The more young men in school, the fewer on the street to cause trouble.

Someone really hit the nail on the head when he said...give people a broom and tell them to sweep up the street. That doesn't require soap, water or any money to pay for it. Its hard not to impatient with a populace that couldn't overthrow a dictator, can't control the criminals and just sit there like children waiting for the US to provide everything and solve all problems.

However, one of the major problems is that those people DON"T have something constructive to do except sit around and gripe. Perhaps it would be wise for Paul Breme to take Iraqi oil money and start hiring for jobs. No equipment to do the work> That's fine. Let them do it manually. Pile up pieces of broken concrete at the end of the street. Pile up pieces of broken glass in another spot. Pile up wood in another. Etc., Etc.

People who work all day and are tired at night don't have the energy to be driving around in White Toyotas firing RPG's at Coalition Forces.. And further, the hiring should begin with all males under the age of 40. They are the ones with the most energy and the raging hormones.

THAT, Belle, deserves a standing ovation.

TerryP - Thanks for the insight. When I say I learn something every day on this blog, I'm serious. I appreciate your comments. As a Westerner who spent a year on foreign soil, I thought I had a handle on societal perceptions. I do not. I had never thought of looking at it in that manner.

What the hell is this article? Did Comical Ali find a new gig?

Seth my point is it's not a coalition of the willing, it's a coalition of greed.

Practically all troop sendings now are based on greed, best example might be Poland and Japan who will send 1000 non combatant military personel. Yeah for the rebuilding of Iraq and to get a good share of the cake for Japanese Companies.
This is simply disgusting, and beside your steady mention of Germany, we had very few trade relations with Iraq, even as it was legal in the 80th compared to other nations including the USA.
This all lead to the conclusion, if there weren't Oil in Iraq, noone would care if there is an Dictator who kills his People or not. Proof are many many other Dictatorships around the Globe, as example one of your buddies, Kazaksthan.
Read this to learn how this coalition came together.

http://www.ips-dc.org/COERCED.pdf

Belle is so far right, the People in Iraq mainly need someone who engage and pay them regulary, so they have an income and can feed their families.
They only want an normal life like ordinary People usually do.

The problem with that is clear, everyone who work directly for the US, is an target for the saddam loyalists because they see this as an kind of collaboration with the enemy.

So to have effect, People have to be engaged from Iraqi companies. And exactly this is the problem. Almost all what happens or moves in Iraq is controlled from the US military. Any attempt to solve existing Problems with own solutions, will be branded as subversive. It's not wanted from the US Overseer Mr Bremer because US Companies are scheduled for this. So instead rebuilding Iraq with own labor, with own Companies, with own management, the US Adminstration engage US Companies to do the Job.
This is not rebuilding an Country, it's destroying any economy in Iraq.
This is a full fledged economical War against Iraq, and they even have to pay it with THEIR Oil.

Might be now more clear why Belle is right but wrong. This good thinking will never happen in Iraq. The People won't be engaged in working contracts, because the USA have already enough unemployed People who will work at any place.

Rebuilding Iraq means work for US worker, not for Iraqis. Simple as that.

keeping in mind terry's insight's,

I would have to say we had better get a millitary and a police corp up and running to take the heat off us.

then we can concentrate on asshats sneaking back and forth from syria and building an insurgency.

Nobody: it only leads to that conclusion if you have no capacity for rational thought. But what fascinates me is that your emotions are apparently more worked up about the ancillary benefits of the war for American companies than about the fact that Iraqi are no longer being buried in mass graves by a torture regime. It's interesting what gets your passions going, isn't it?

Nobody,

Yes, it means more work for Americans. I am slaving away everyday to pay over 50% of my income to support those wonderful soldiers who liberated the Iraqis. And I am going to have to work harder because of it. Does anyone think of that? And as someone once wisely said...it would have been cheaper for the American Govt to pay for the oil rather than to send men and materiel to the Gulf.

What would happen if the Americans would suddenly pull out? You would have mass chaos and another strong man dictator would emerge to repress the Iraqis for another 100 years.

There is absolutely no way anyone could convince me that GW Bush sent troops only for us to control the Oil Fields.

I say hire the Iraqis to guard the pipelines and put them every 10 feet. $1 per day. Men, Women and Children. THEN when the pipelines are blown up by renegade Iraqis, then let them get the blame. Surround every American soldier with unarmed Iraqis. When they get shot, who will get the blame?
Hire Iraqis to stand in front of the Museum and at the Water and Electrical Plants. When they get shot or blown up, let the Iraqis see who is killing their own.

You can't expect Americans to understand the Arab way of doing things because we are NOT Arabs. Perhaps instead of us doing things the Arab way, the Arabs can learn there are other ways than what they';ve been doing for the past 2000 years. No one is trying to force them to do anything but keep the peace long enough for a representative government to be formed.

rumcrook:

The strategy is to take on the heat. This is the fun summer game of Jihadi Knucklehead Elimination.

(See http://geeinbaghdad.blogspot.com/ for the latest entry.)

This is a fresh concept in national security. Keep the Islamonazis busy in a foreign land to keep the homeland safer.

But the Iraqi security force is coming. It's looking to be an action-packed summer, but the long-term prognosis is excellent.

JB -

Thanks for the geeinbaghdaad link. See also instapundit today, who has links to David Warren http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/Comment/Jul03/index150.shtml#top - the gist being that Bush is intentionally taunting Hizbullah to enter Iraq where they can be wiped out.

In cold geopolitical terms this is fine. As a chess game its a great strategy. However I really worry about the moral of our troops. If your risking your life you want to be part of a plan. If the "plan" is for you to walk around and risk your life, with a big "I'm a pawn" sign, I could see how that could become, er, discouraging. But if they understood and were bought in, then the strategy could be very effective.

I know many vets post here. Any active service people? How do you all feel about this?

No sooner did I post the above than I found this via Drudge:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0707/p02s01-woiq.html

This kind of thing can't be waived off or dismissed as idiotarian doom and gloom. There really is no greater issue. When young men and women cease to have enough confidence in their leadership (political as well as military) to join the military, we are screwed. We're not there yet but I don't like the trend.

Like I said I want to hear what the military folks have to say.

Why in God's Name can't someone tell me why if the Indian army wants to go there, at thier own expense, we don't let them?"

37,000 troop is alot of numbers that we really could use right now. 50 celsius! Are they Nuts?

DC

It probably has something to do with a whole bunch of diplofux and other bureaucrats who feel they must first run off a few weeks/ months worth of hot air. It's a self importance, territorial carnivore thing that neither factors in nor cares about the lives being lost while they hem and haw, and is most likely the single largest cause of death in any life threatening situation in which immediate action would prevent a lot of deaths.

I don't know how the military feels about the mission in Iraq but I do know they don't like Rumsfeld.

And while I'm on the subject of the military and DOD.............does anyone know why Victoria Clarke resigned as spokesman?

Le Roi Soeil,
Some active service thoughts for you.
1. I don't have any particular views on Mr Rumsfeld
there again he's not in my food chain. If I was in your military(and here I'm going back a few threads) I would be seriously looking at the development of multi role/ flexible light forces. Enough punch to deter the bad boys, fast enough to move around the world at high speed. 82nd and 101st type formations.
2. Be prepared for the long haul, we've all got used to 100 hour wars, swift military victory and bring the boys home for christmas. Sometimes it doesn't work that way. We are told that the American public has an attention span measured in days, not weeks or months. This probably reflects more on the media than the public. Perhaps society should talk to the media,tell them that just because it isn't good TV they shouldn't knock it. Once the "First Team" of reporters has gone home, the second team is always left scratching for news, they need to shine , they need to find a story, and there's no news like bad news.
3. Probably because of the above , we are risking victory in the hearts and mind war. No-one wants to tell the good news stories, other than the utterly bland spokesmen at Military briefings, they tend to make good news about as interesting as watching paint dry. We are superb at taking apart the other guys Army, and quite good (when the First Team is reporting) at spreading the happy word. But, in this phase of the operation we are being outmanouvred
by our inability to "shape the Battlefield": the media and PR battlefield. I'll believe that we're relly making the effort when young thrusting officers are congratulated on getting a Media Ops or Public Information posting, and see it as a big step up, rather than a dead end tour.

Enough of this, Seth,
I read a few pages back of your speaking "The Queen's English..." frightfully sorry old chap I think not, possibly you meant Queen's English as in that wonderful NY borough.

Belle , thank you for your down to earth commonsense.

Everyone, having read Michelle and Alan's comments on our sometimes appalling rants and somewhat less than sly digs at each other we 'd better shape up. I've only been here for a few weeks, and it really has helped time pass quickly, I'd hate to lose this forum. Lets not start getting nice to each other, that would be appalling, but lets voice our opinions subtly, so that we cannot offer any posible offence to those really nice well intentioned attorneys I sense lurking behind A&M 's shoulders. It would be crass and stupid to endanger our pals by reffering to such people as "bloodsucking , ambulance chasing, f...wits,
who can't make it in the real world and need pulling through with a pine tree". It would be utterly wrong for us to even think such thoughts much less refer to them in such true....whoops, Non PC manner.
Michelle and Alan rest assured that this correspondent will never sully your post in such a way....

anyhow, got to go.
Have a good day .

Ubique

The Queens English was a reference to Queens, N.Y.. which once played host(right in my neighborhood, in fact) to our answer to Wimbledon, as it were. Good red clay courts. Now they host it in nearby Flushing for the bigger stadium.

Nobody said, "Seth my point is it's not a coalition of the willing, it's a coalition of greed. "

That 'theory' has had holes punched in it to the point it holds no water, ( it 'never' did). You sound like one of the French or Germans that lost their 'greed motivated' deals with Sodom.

Nobody said, "Practically all troop sendings now are based on greed, best example might be Poland and Japan who will send 1000 non combatant military personel. Yeah for the rebuilding of Iraq and to get a good share of the cake for Japanese Companies."

Yeah....the initial coalition were the only ones that didn't have any greed. After the heavy work is done, then the ones with financially motivated motives will help. Barring the ones that stood in our way from the beginning, is only common sense.

Nobody said, "This is simply disgusting, and beside your steady mention of Germany, we had very few trade relations with Iraq, even as it was legal in the 80th compared to other nations including the USA."

"Very few trade relations"....One big juicy one, with the right person, would be enough.

Nobody said, "This all lead to the conclusion, if there weren't Oil in Iraq, noone would care if there is an Dictator who kills his People or not. Proof are many many other Dictatorships around the Globe, as example one of your buddies, Kazaksthan."

Yeah, kinda like Hitler....all we wanted was his oil. Like Vietnam....all we wanted was their rice. Korea....all we wanted was cheap products to undercut our own. Afganistan.....all we wanted was their...uhhhh......dirt?? Now Liberia....which, up front we've stated it's both....Oil and humanitarian. Now, what was your point??

Nobody said, "Belle is so far right, the People in Iraq mainly need someone who engage and pay them regulary, so they have an income and can feed their families.
They only want an normal life like ordinary People usually do."

Difference is, ordinary people have to get off their ass and help themselves. With the exception of liberal socialist countries.

Nobody said, "The problem with that is clear, everyone who work directly for the US, is an target for the saddam loyalists because they see this as an kind of collaboration with the enemy."

Would sweeping the streets and picking up trash, seem like a lot of collaboration???

Nobody said, "So to have effect, People have to be engaged from Iraqi companies. And exactly this is the problem. Almost all what happens or moves in Iraq is controlled from the US military."

That is because all that happened or moved in Iraq was controlled by Sodom.

Nobody said, "Any attempt to solve existing Problems with own solutions, will be branded as subversive."

Only by the terrorists that are sabotaging our efforts.

Nobody said, " It's not wanted from the US Overseer Mr Bremer because US Companies are scheduled for this. So instead rebuilding Iraq with own labor, with own Companies, with own management, the US Adminstration engage US Companies to do the Job."

Sorry the Germans and French weren't invited. Besides, we want it done right the first time. :)

Nobody said, "This is not rebuilding an Country, it's destroying any economy in Iraq.
This is a full fledged economical War against Iraq, and they even have to pay it with THEIR Oil. "

What a dumba--......That ignorant statement doesn't even deserve a response.

Nobody said, "Might be now more clear why Belle is right but wrong. This good thinking will never happen in Iraq. The People won't be engaged in working contracts, because the USA have already enough unemployed People who will work at any place."

Alot of them don't want to work, and especially not for $20 a week.

Nobody said, "Rebuilding Iraq means work for US worker, not for Iraqis. Simple as that."

Yeah, I see them all lined up wanting to help rebuild 'their own' country. We can rebuild Iraq despite the help we are receiving from the Iraqis.

Fox news this morning said the saboteurs were actually crawling down manholes and cutting wires. At the same time they bitch about the US troops screwing up their electricity...... Makes our job so much easier.

Nobody said, "Seth my point is it's not a coalition of the willing, it's a coalition of greed. "

That 'theory' has had holes punched in it to the point it holds no water, ( it 'never' did). You sound like one of the French or Germans that lost their 'greed motivated' deals with Sodom.

Nobody said, "Practically all troop sendings now are based on greed, best example might be Poland and Japan who will send 1000 non combatant military personel. Yeah for the rebuilding of Iraq and to get a good share of the cake for Japanese Companies."

Yeah....the initial coalition were the only ones that didn't have any greed. After the heavy work is done, then the ones with financially motivated motives will help. Barring the ones that stood in our way from the beginning, is only common sense.

Nobody said, "This is simply disgusting, and beside your steady mention of Germany, we had very few trade relations with Iraq, even as it was legal in the 80th compared to other nations including the USA."

"Very few trade relations"....One big juicy one, with the right person, would be enough.

Nobody said, "This all lead to the conclusion, if there weren't Oil in Iraq, noone would care if there is an Dictator who kills his People or not. Proof are many many other Dictatorships around the Globe, as example one of your buddies, Kazaksthan."

Yeah, kinda like Hitler....all we wanted was his oil. Like Vietnam....all we wanted was their rice. Korea....all we wanted was cheap products to undercut our own. Afganistan.....all we wanted was their...uhhhh......dirt?? Now Liberia....which, up front we've stated it's both....Oil and humanitarian. Now, what was your point??

Nobody said, "Belle is so far right, the People in Iraq mainly need someone who engage and pay them regulary, so they have an income and can feed their families.
They only want an normal life like ordinary People usually do."

Difference is, ordinary people have to get off their ass and help themselves. With the exception of liberal socialist countries.

Nobody said, "The problem with that is clear, everyone who work directly for the US, is an target for the saddam loyalists because they see this as an kind of collaboration with the enemy."

Would sweeping the streets and picking up trash, seem like a lot of collaboration???

Nobody said, "So to have effect, People have to be engaged from Iraqi companies. And exactly this is the problem. Almost all what happens or moves in Iraq is controlled from the US military."

That is because all that happened or moved in Iraq was controlled by Sodom.

Nobody said, "Any attempt to solve existing Problems with own solutions, will be branded as subversive."

Only by the terrorists that are sabotaging our efforts.

Nobody said, " It's not wanted from the US Overseer Mr Bremer because US Companies are scheduled for this. So instead rebuilding Iraq with own labor, with own Companies, with own management, the US Adminstration engage US Companies to do the Job."

Sorry the Germans and French weren't invited. Besides, we want it done right the first time. :)

Nobody said, "This is not rebuilding an Country, it's destroying any economy in Iraq.
This is a full fledged economical War against Iraq, and they even have to pay it with THEIR Oil. "

What a dumba--......That ignorant statement doesn't even deserve a response.

Nobody said, "Might be now more clear why Belle is right but wrong. This good thinking will never happen in Iraq. The People won't be engaged in working contracts, because the USA have already enough unemployed People who will work at any place."

Alot of them don't want to work, and especially not for $20 a week.

Nobody said, "Rebuilding Iraq means work for US worker, not for Iraqis. Simple as that."

Yeah, I see them all lined up wanting to help rebuild 'their own' country. We can rebuild Iraq despite the help we are receiving from the Iraqis.

Fox news this morning said the saboteurs were actually crawling down manholes and cutting wires. At the same time they bitch about the US troops screwing up their electricity...... Makes our job so much easier.

Sorry about the double post...I don't know what happened...unless I hit the post button twice....hmmm...must be getting senile.

I still think the biggest self-created problem we face in Iraq happened 12 years ago, when we left Saddam in power, and watched thousands be murdered.

Saying that, the worst thing we can do right now is leave.
They watched us in Somolia and beleive they have learned that the American People do not have a stomach for loss, and fear another "Vietnam".
They have pegged our short attention span right on the head.

I don't want to be cross-posting stuff here, but I suggest a read of the post above for an idea that may have merit, especially where the electricity thingy is concerned.

Seth,
Don't let that nazi Nobody rattle you.

He can't accept the fact that Germany is a failed economy, and that they got their hands caught in the cookie jar along with france.

So, in his socialist/communist way, he will try discredit the efforts of the coalition of the willing to try undermine the chance of freedom and democracy in Iraq, and anywhere else in the world.

Now you know why Europe will NEVER, has NEVER, been able to form a nation with all those tiny wee countries that make up Europe.

America is a shinning example of success as opposed to thousands of years of failure in Europe

50 states united as one body, one country as opposed to thousands of years of blood in europe, and they are still walking in the same path to destruction, and will again call for the land of free people to fix their shit, like we had to do with the world relief fund after ww2.

These are an ungrateful people, who wouldn't even have life today if it wasn't for the blood of hundreds of thousands of Brits, Canadians and americans, Aussies.
Why do you waste your breath on these people.
They don't represent the people of Europe, only the problem of Europe.

I hear you, Bubba.
It often seems like they get their economic policies from someone named John Maynard Lemming, and run most of that continent on not a trial and error basis, just error. When it's failed for the thirtieth or fortieth time, don't give up.... Try it exactly the same way again.

This is why people came to America, Canada.
to get away from that cancer in Europe, and to make a better way.
We should never loose sight of this, Nor our struggle to achieve it, as imperfect as it is at this stage, it's still much better than the disease left behind

This isn't a comment about the UK either, I don't consider the UK to be part of Europe, just a people who has to tolerate the politics of Europe much more than we do here.

there are probably more brits in Canada And the USA than in the motherland now, LOL And lets not forget our suntanned SPOILED Aussie commonwealth friends either.

Being A Canadian army guy, I still swear my Oath of Allegiance to the queen and her heirs, same as any Commonwealth Soldier

I believe it's time for the Islamic world to step up to the plate and start to help themselves make a better world. It looks to me that they always sit back and look for someone else to make or break their world. This ME ethic will get them no ware, we did not build a great US by not working and waiting for someone else to do it. Killing more Americans troops will only make life worse not better.

Nobody... have you read Huntingtons book yet? I gave you a link to it on Amazon the last time we spoke..

Thank you Bubba,
as I posted elsewhere, a swift defence that we are technically Europeans. If my country ever makes the mistake of signing up to the Euro as our currency, could you make house room for one relatively well trained ex UK citizen, I know my way around Wainwright and most of Medicine Hat.

On a different note I was interested by the earlier debate over Bosnia-ie Herzogvina, there were some wild/ extreme views being aired. I had the fortune/ misfortune to serve both under a light blue beret in Sarajevo and very soon afterwards with a dark blue beret as an LO with MNDN, basically 1st US Armoured at TUZLA and the surrounds.

I was surprised by the reaction of some of the postees, or was it just a chance to vent some inbedded Islamophobia. From where I was sitting/ running/ plain S.....Ting myself , we were getting a very different handle on things. No-one was blameless in that war, I rather think that no-one is blameless in any war, and whilst I learnt to despise several members of the Muslim Government that I had occasion to deal with, on the whole I came away with the feeling that the Bosnian Muslims were more "Sinned against than sinning".

I can't comment on more recent developments in country, I haven't been back for years (Boy is that good)( although currently a winter tour would seem like heaven).

Are you Armour , Inf 0r Egr? I met the most wonderful Canadian WO in Sarajevo, Engr, but we've drifted apart, love to all up there in God's Country.

Ublique.. its unfortunate that you guys did not carry on Thatchers vision to be part of NAFTA. The EU will lead to loss of states rights and muddled, unacountable bureaucracy. The only thing worse for Great Britain than joining the euro would probably be loosing control of its military to Brussels... under some misguided common EU foreign policy. I wonder how many would leave the British armed forces with you if that happened..

medic/ infrantry, ppcli

Ubique,
You probably know it, but if you don't
PPCLI stands for

Princess Patrica's Light Infantry , That the unit I'm currently attached to.

my home base is something with a 17th in it.
I'm sure your familiar.
Shilo area

Did anybody else notice the mistake in the headline? It's not BACK to the stone age, it's STILL in the stone age.

50c equals 122f
Today 112f
This chart shows today's weather - http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/IZXX0008.html.

Yes it is hot there but this shows the writer's need to exagerate.

Peace is nor than just an end to war, and we are working on it. It is a process and people will continue to be very uncomfortable during this process but let's look at the big picture.