Sgt. 1st Class Gladimir Philippe, 37, of Linden, N.J.

Pfc. Kevin Ott, 27, of Columbus, Ohio.

We salute you.

You have made the ultimate sacrifice, to which there is no way we can show enough appreciation.

May the people that belittle your work and your humanitarian mission, rot in hell along side the very beasts, that you gave your lives to remove from ours.

By criticizing the policies of this administration, does not mean that I and others, who do the same, do not have the utmost respect for the sacrifices of the soldiers who must follow it.

It is because I care for the soldiers, their families, and the constitution of the USA that I criticize.

The risks and sacrifices that they are now forced to make, may have been unnecessary with better leadership from the President, Congress, and the military.

This may now be an impossible war for the military and a war that could have waited for a better time when the world was unitied. There was no real reason that the US needed to go now, since we know that there was no imminent threat from Iraq and inspectors were back.

It was foolish of the Administration to start a war when it was not necessary. Soldiers are now dying because of thier mistakes. At least we should have waited till our intilligence could have been improved. With inspectors all over Iraq there could have been tons of intelligence that could have been gathered. Wars should only be fought when there are no other options. Bush should answer the question, "Why the rush?"

Shut up save, you moron

This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

those men will be remembered on this anniversary by their comrades.

Though i don't agree with many of save's points, he is right. just because liberals criticize the policies of the government, doesn't mean that they all want to see our soldiers dead.

Sgt. 1st Class Gladimir Philippe, 37, of Linden, N.J.

Pfc. Kevin Ott, 27, of Columbus, Ohio.

We salute you.

You have made the ultimate sacrifice, to which there is no way we can show enough appreciation.

Murdered. What a tragedy.

Once again the arab world whows why it is regarded as the most backward and primitive on the planet.

Clearly Iraq is a very dangerous place indeed. Once Iran is dealt with, you'll see the danger reduce rapidly.

There is some work for those layed offf iraqi baathists, build a big new prison for themselves

Hey worker

As J R 'Bob' Dobbs put it; 'Pull the wool over your own eyes'.

I can't figure how you could make such a callous statement. Unless you just like the debate.

You trying out for troll of the week?

june

love that speech. Yeah, that needs to be said here.

God rest you brave men.

Save,

In response to your "Why the rush" post into this Iraqi war I have a few possible reasons. You state the war could "have waited for a better time when the world was unitied." In response to that I say there will never be a time in my opinion when the world is truly united at least in the forseeable future(I would say this even before our conflict with other nations over going to war in Iraq.)

Ever since the end of the cold war many leaders in Europe have sought to break away from the U.S. to establish themselves as a more independent political and economic force (Look at the goverment subsidized airbus or the formation of the European Union for example.)

I can say with some confidence that the political agenda Jacques Chirac had for Europe to be a counterbalance to the U.S. existed long before our disagreement over Iraq. Iraq was merely an opportunity for the French to reveal their political agenda which they did. Given this waiting would only weaken the U.S. strength to push their interests in security.

Furthermore I would say the free world was most united with the U.S. right after 9/11 but it has been only a matter of time before 9/11 event has lost its potency to bring us together. In that case I think the U.S. was right in using the temporary momentum created by 9/11 to further its security interests now rather than later as momentum would likely be less later on.

june16_1904 --

"What's he that wishes so? My cousin Westmoreland? No fair cus - if we are marked to die then we enow to do our country loss - and if to live the greater share of honour."

These troops have a far greater share of that honour, for they died in the name of freedom – both our freedom and the freedom of the people of Iraq. Don't be surprised therefore if some people feel that by belittling that cause you are belittling their sacrifice.

Whilst Shakespeare’s Histories are somewhat revisionist (to say the least - for instance Hotspur was in his grave long before Hals birth) there has not been an Englishman for 400 years who has not felt the tingle on the back of his neck (and a twitch of their longbow fingers) upon hearing those lines spoken buy a hugely outnumbered English monarch before the French hoarde near Agincourt. (Our Hal was the last English monarch to know how to deal with the French - see: Mary Tudor.)

If we could wind the clock forward a decade, to when the Iraqis will speak of their glorious liberation by the coalition and their pride in their newly democratic society it will be with that same pride felt by those longbow men that troops of the Coalition will be able to remember the sacrifice of those who stood midwife to the birth of democracy in Iraq.

"In the morning and at the going down of the sun we shall remember them."

I'm not surprised. but rationally offering criticism of the actions of any administration according to the dictates of one's conscience, while not as instilled with bravery or heroism as sacrificing one's life, is still a part of our duty as citizens of an open democracy.
The endeavor is great enough that the trifle bashings of a fool liberal will not do true damage to its honor. Many of us ought to show a thicker skin in dealing with such belittlement and insult.
As to whether or not our soldiers will feel the sting of such words; i would wager that the absurd accusation by a thousand that our troops are criminal will not outweigh the thanks of one Iraqi grateful for their compassion and assistance.

TedD said:

"Once again the arab world whows why it is regarded as the most backward and primitive on the planet."

Nice racism, moron. Go back to the dark hole that you crawled out of, so the rest of us can be spared from your hate. Also, I would encourage you to never breed, so your genes can be taken out of the global gene pool.

I'm not surprised. but rationally offering criticism of the actions of any administration according to the dictates of one's conscience, while not as instilled with bravery or heroism as sacrificing one's life, is still a part of our duty as citizens of an open democracy.

There was a time and a place for such democracy. After our duly elected representatives have voted one the matter is not that time and in a war zone is hardly that place. Continued argument and revisionist smears are, after the fact of a vote in your Congress and our Parliment, moot in dealing with the realities on the ground. It just ain't helpful.

The endeavor is great enough that the trifle bashings of a fool liberal will not do true damage to its honor. Many of us ought to show a thicker skin in dealing with such belittlement and insult.

Quite so. But human nature is such that one should not be surprised by an emotional reaction to an emotive subject.

And besides, anyone still waving the twelve and a half year "rush-to-war" standard pretty much deserves everything they get. Only the "blood-for-oil" slogan was more stuid and less informed (TIP: If we wanted the oil that badly we'd have just bought it like the French and the Russians were trying to do).

But Fox News said the war is over ?

And Bush is so busy raising money to be reelected he can't even comment on this shit. He is a fucking animal to allow this to happen and create this situation where Americans die for his own selfish and greedy ambitions. Anyone who is a human should be outraged and calling for the head of any public official who has corrupted our military institution in this way. Fighting for freedom, my ass. Our soldiers died for no reason. NONE. George W. Bush will stand on their dead bodies and have the nerve to ask their parents for their vote. Bush is an animal like the world hasn't seen since Adolph Hitler. Look what he has done! For what? For what I ask you! Those boys are dying for nothing. NOTHING. Word is the military hates him and his administration more than they ever hated Clinton. At least Clinton let the military run itself.

hey x, you are the moron, what he was giving an opinion on, not the superiority of one skin color or ethnicity over another, (which would be racist)

he was stating an opinion on the state of modernity within arab CULTURE and making a value judgement on the accepted level of primitive barbarity accepted by that CULTURE.

you can disagree with that but there is quite a bit of anecdotle evidence to show he's got a point.

some cultures are succesful and some dont have the flexibility to be truely successful. the same as software

the moral relativism that you obviously ascribe to wont allow you to see any criticism of another culture (except the west) as legitimate but what you cant do is start swinging the race bat and calling names unless someone has actually made a racist statement.

turnip you are a troll and a liar.

word is???

from who?

you make so much crap up its amazing.

Turnip;

This fund raising activity on Bush's part has been mostly a recent undertaking, something every incumbent has to do somewhere along the line, whereas I seem to recall that Bill Clinton's entire term in office was one long 8 year campaign.

Not that the last 4 did him any good, the American people spoke in 2000 and Bill's ass boy lost the election.

But that isn't what this thread is about, it's about the loss of brave American soldiers who gave their lives to free others.

Your even commenting on such a forum belittles their supreme sacrifice and spits on their memory.

rumcrook said:

"he was stating an opinion on the state of modernity within arab CULTURE"

Then he was wrong. Look at Kuwait City. Look at Cairo. Look at Dohar. Look at Riyadh. All of these cities are as modern as any European city that you can name.

Besides, regardless of whether he was talking about the people, the culture, the religion, or _anything_, he was overgeneralizing, which only leads to hate.

Troll alert! Troll alert!!!

DO

NOT

FEED

THE

TROLLS!!!!

Houston daily news headline:

Turnip celebrates Anal sex ruling in gay pride march in downtown houston

Seth,

Bush has been raising funds since at least 2002; do a Google search with the following search terms - "Bush fundraising." Rove believes as much in the permanent campaign, opinion polls, raising money early and often, as much as Clinton's handlers did.

Hey Jacques!!! chirac has been stealing money alot longer than that!!! LMAO
Sinse when should a french fuck like you comment on American politics ? look in your own backyard, asshole

We're again losing sight of the fact that two soldiers were murdered. I have a grandson in 3ID. The average age of the American soldier is 19. Don't argue politics here, find your own thread. Two dead men. These kids are scared, do not hear news, get on internet only once in a while, have been there since January.....we need to celebrate their lives, and proclaim them the hero's that they are. They are depressed, lonely, scared, and wondering what the hell is happening....forget left against right. Any other time, but not now.

The French Connection
Oil giant Total does business in Iran and Sudan. Now it's trying to get back to Iraq.

Trial date set for French president hopeful Juppe
Juppe, an ally of President Jacques Chirac, was the city's financial director in the early 1990s when Chirac was mayor. He and 26 others are accused of using the scheme to channel public cash into their conservative party of the time, the RPR.

Chirac :The artful dodger

Rice blasts Chirac's concept of world

Intellfrance's intelligence briefing :
A few days days ago Intellfrance received an interesting letter from the French anti-war movement in which they complain about having been misleaded and manipulated by the French government on the "Iraq war" subject, accusing the French authorities of only trying to protect its interests in Iraq...

Just a few of todays headlines for you to choke on jacques.

Troll, I have to back you on the military hating Bush. They are over there collecting trash & getting shot at, not what they want to do, not what I thing a American military should do, But word from my friend that is stationed in Iraq is the military is pissed & ready to come home. What has Bush got us into. I am not talking about top brass or gung-ho military, I am talking about your average joe.
I also love & respect our military, it is Bush I have a problem with & it is allo about oil.

I agree nanna, but the trolls have no respect

I agree nanna, but the trolls have no respect

Sophia, since when did I give you the Idea that us Soldiers hated bush? Your daydreaming you silly cunt. Fuck off troll you can be sure if I saw an Iraqi comming to cut your throat, I wouldn't stop him, you ungratefull troll Don't you dare talk about what us army people think, fucked up bitch

it really is not proper to speak to a lday like that. The men i've known from the army have all been well mannered and polite to ladies. and most of them don't hide behind fake email addresses either.

Thanks, I agree. One wonders what these "trolls" would do, living with heat upwards of 117 degrees, in full battle dress, in 120 degrees of heat, knowing that each time they go out on patrol, they may be shot. Many here claim to have been in Viet Nam, agreed the most horrible "conflict" this country has ever been involved in. I was a kid, and fought against it most prominently, still respecting the soldiers including my brothers who fought. They saw the horror. But the kids over in Iraq didn't even study Viet Nam in school....most of them joined the service to better their chances of getting a good education. Now they face death daily. This Command Post needs to get by the "turnip" mode, the slamming mode, the pit PTG against BUBBA shit. It used to be a great place to find breaking news....now its just a rant. Take the bashing off line.

What ever gave you the idea she was a Lady? Just a HO is all. bashing troops like the Nam days.Disrespect deserves disrespect.
All you trolls care about is getting fucked up the ass.
The bitch has no right talking about how WE think, so fuck you too cunt.

That wasn't meant for you, Nanna.

Just the trolls who keep up their endless circukar anti bush hate.

No wonder Bubba seems to have left the building, at least he stood up for what we all know we had to do.

best thing is to ignore the trolls.

Jacques

The major difference is that Bush has been working nonstop and doing so under more stress than Clinton ever had(except maybe when he got caught cheating on his wife and then lied about it, lying being his primary skill). Even when he takes a vacation, he is working most of the time, but that's a Republican thing.
The Democrat attitude was well illustrated in the mid 1990s, when Clinton kept vetoing GOP budget proposals. All the Dems went home for the holiday recess while the Republicans stayed in DC, working hard to hammer out a budget. It all got resolved when Greenspan threatened to raise interest rates if a budget wasn't approved, and, an election coming up and all, Clinton couldn't get the budget approved quickly enough.
Now, let's get back to the thread we started out with and show some respect for fallen American soldiers, whom I know are probably of little concern to a frenchman.

Troll Patrol, thanks for the exception. But, just for an example of what's really happening in Baghdad, I give everyone this summary of a conversation I had yesterday with my grandson, a hero, stationed with the 3rd Calvery Infantry Division there. We were on chat, for once in a blue moon, and had his little sister on with us also. She loves pigs, has had all manner of stuffed pig animals, piggy banks, etc. since she was tiny. So, grandson is depressed, can't do much in Baghdad, it's really dangerous out there, they tend to spend time only inside, watching sporatic TV, playing video games, playing cards, avoiding the sun and the heat. When time comes to go on patrol, they do so. They are soldiers. They are apolitical, don't care and don't get into politics. They're kids, doing a job. They have their buddies, which they will protect with their own lives. So, sister says, Oh, gee, guess what I saw yesterday, (they live in a rural area) a truck full of slaughtered pigs! She meant only to prompt grandson into a giggle, as we have always teased her about the pig fetish. His reply: Beats seeing a wagon full of dead bodies...saw too many of them on the way here. No blame, no knowledge of who killed whom, just that blank statement. My point is that its not who is to blame, but more that these kids are being exposed to so much more than these trolls and their giant ego's, or petty ego's since their claim to fame is this web site, have ever experienced. Worried about post war Iraq? Not me. I'm worried about how we're going to make it right to these kids over there, when and if they get home.

Seth-you really are going to sit there and say that GW is not a liar? If Clinton was there vetoing GOP BS righ now, we wouldn't be heading toward the biggest budget deficit of all time. Don't get me in the position of defending Clinton. I hated that SOB too. The soldiers who died did so in vain. They died in that sewer called Iraq. What a tragedy. They wanted to be heroes and became GW Bush's toilet paper. He wiped his ass with them and threw them on the ground to rot. He couldn't care less. He hates this "untidiness." That's what rich spoiled brats call human misery.

Actually, Seth is the most dangerous troll here. He talks as if the present killing of Americans, orchestrated by Syria and possibly our "allies", was A) unexpected and B) something that should now make us play into the enemy's hands by hand-wringing and navel gazing! Maybe Seth should get a clue and realize that we just killed some Syrian border-guards (an act of war in any other time line) and we refuse to give Syrian border guard prisoners back right now. The killing of US soldiers in Iraq was planned by those who decided to let the US get Baghdad quickly but be forced out later as the hand-wringing of Left Wingers and bleeding heart "grandfathers of someone in the 3ID" waxed pessimistic about the socalled "Vietnam Quagmire" that had come about. Such idiots should get one thing straight: the continued killing of US soldiers by Syrian backed Sunnis in Iraq WILL, not might, result in a full scale attack on Syria. In the meanwhile, every US death is resulting in the killing of Syrian officials in Syria by special ops troops. So don't troll with nonsense about being a troop's grandfather. We are in a major war to wipe out French-style "multipolarism" and we are not going to back away without at least wiping out a few more enemy governments militarily. We never should have pulled out of Vietnam and let 3 Million South Vietnamese and Combodians get slaughtered by the communists. There is a fat zero of a chance that we will pull out of Iraq before the Shiites are fully capable of controlling their own land and Syria and Iran are free of their dictatorships as well.

I would just like to clarify that Bush announced (paraphrasing here) that all major combat operations were over and not that the war was over.

Am i missing something here john? when did seth announce that "A) unexpected and B) something that should now make us play into the enemy's hands by hand-wringing and navel gazing!" is he posing under a different name or posting on some other thread? where is this coming from? and Iran does not live under a dictatorship. It is a theocracy that is not governed by the whim of one man. The theocratic regime is repressive and terrible, but it is not a dictatorship. also, accidentally killing border guards is not an act of war. and where are you getting your information on special ops troops in syria? if you're privy to some secret information, you certainly did just break protocol.

I can't believe this. Why is this not named "The Blame Post"? You posters are sick. Two soldiers are dead, and all you do is point political fingers. Gotta find myself a relevent blog.....

One important thing to remind everyone about: the North Vietnamese Generals (and their Soviet and Chinese allied Generals) all admit that they tried to give up their terror against the presence of US forces in South Vietnam several times (it was costing them 10 times the lives as they were taking), but they were convinced to always redouble their efforts to stay in the war and kill Americans because the American media was encouraging them to do so. This is a fact. What they were motivated by was all important and they were motivated by people like Seth. The former enemy generals admit that they were sustained morally and strategically by the American Left (and faux, read hand-wringing, conservatives like Seth) to kill Americans. So, Seth, you might be helping to get your grandson killed by suggesting that further killings of US troops in Iraq might get George Bush and the 60% of Americans who want to attack another country to just reverse their attitude and surrender to France and the Left! There isn't going to be any pulling back. At most, Rumsfeld will allow a more international occupation force now that he has had time to build a system of Iraq counterintelligence agents who would let him know if French or Russian agents in the new peacekeeping force were acting against the safety of American troops. So any handwringing about terror attacks on US soldiers will only encourage more terror attacks on US soldiers. Get mad at Syria, Seth, and your grandson might live. Get mad at Bush, and you will only encourage France and Syria to try to kill your grandson until they get what they want. You have to understand: the media will not win this time the way they think they did in Vietnam. The left wing media, contrary to mythology, did not convince the American people that they had made a mistake in Vietnam and needed to pull out right away. The public voted for Nixon in 1972 while Nixon was heavily bombing the enemy. In fact, Nixon stepped up the bombing of Hanoi's suburban military bases on Election Day, in order to send more people to the polls. Nixon pulled out of Vietnam because of a secret deal with China, the principle backer of the North Vietnamese. If Congress had any power in getting us out of Vietnam, it was because leftists had been elected to office there because most Americans were concerned about the Environment and Tobacco Advertising back then. We effectively "lost" the Vietnam War because there were valid liberal issues back home in the USA that needed to be dealt with in the face of a backward Republican Party that was only correct in its Vietnam policy but not correct in its other policies.

Just as happened with Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos, Syrian backed Sunni terrorist action against US troops (and the infrastructure of the Iraqi people) will only encourage Bush to widen the Iraq War to surrounding places like Syria. This happened with the Ho Chi Minh Trail and the Parrots Beak in Cambodia. It will happen with Syria and Iran (and maybe France :-)). You have to weigh your handwringing behavior against what it will achieve. It will achieve two things, Seth: 1) It will encourage Syria to be our enemy and 2) it will encourage the majority of Americans to back Bush for further military action outside of Iraq to get the forces that think a multipolar world is necessary. It will encourage Bush to face those governments, now mainly the one in Damascus, that hold to the concept that the destruction of Israel would be a good thing and/or the permanent impoverishment of the Arab world is a good thing.

An interesting point: above where I wrote that we will need counterintelligence to see if France might act "against the safety of our troops", I had meant to write that France "might act against US interests." But I had to change it to "might act against the safety of our troops" because American left-wingers wouldn't mind at all if France or anyone else in Iraq acted against US interests...in fact they would encourage such behavior even if that meant, when paraphrased, that a campaign to kill Americans commenced or continued. Its only when you phrase things as "they want to kill our troops" that American left wingers say its a bad thing that the others are doing. But then they say in the same sentence that we need to back away and give Iraq back to Saddam's small band of criminals.

Nanna, I couldn't agree with you more. Here is to your grandson, I hope he comes home to you safe and sound.

Thanks, Texas, me too!!! Remember the Alamo!!!!

John Peterson

Speaking of Trolls, I think you have been lumping posts together; I am not even a grandfather, and have never claimed to be.
Nanna has said she is the grandmother of one of our soldiers in Iraq, and what she posted was definitely within the rights of ANY parent or grandparent to express when her grandchild is at war. I salute her.

As for you, I haven't even expressed my opinion of the war(and its aftermath) in Iraq on this thread, so that pretty much makes you look stupid, doesn't it?

For the record, though, all the WMD and the dumbass "no blood for oil" rhetoric aside, what we are doing over there is right: We have freed the entire population of a country from a tyrant and we are committing ourselves to helping them put together a government that will enable them to manage that freedom to their advantage.

Armchair assholes like you sit there, half a world away from the reality of a situation, and spout bullshit that, if our government acted on it, would deny the Iraqi people that chance.

Before you make a comment, though, you ought to read that which you comment upon.

June 16th: Don't pretend you're an intellectual who knows anything about history. First of all, live with the fact that the unpopular "theocracy" in Iran is on its way out. Second, live with the fact that our agents are *probably* all over Iran and Syria right now acting beligerently against those who like the idea of a socalled "multipolar" world. Third, don't for a minute believe that the killing and capture of Syrian border guards wasn't 1) an act of war that Syria and France are going to pretend wasn't an act of war and 2) a deliberate warning by Bush to Syrian President Assad not only to stop the terror campaign against US soldiers in Iraq, but to divest itself of its anti-Israel terror community in Damascus. Journalists are truly navel gazing if they think they can cook up what, in their fantasy world, might look like another "Vietnam quagmire". The emotions now building up among Americans are to pay back those outside forces who are killing our boys in Iraq. That is what the Syrian border guard incident was all about. Witness the fact that, after they found the missing soldiers dead today, the Pentagon announced that Syrian border guard prisoners were not going to be handed back so soon. Leftist morons cannot get by pretending that Syria is not involved in all this. The American (and Arab) public is not that dumb.

Just as the American public was not unaware that the Ho Chi Minh Trail was five miles inside the Cambodian border and bombing that trail was not really "bombing Cambodia."

Just as the American public was not unaware that the "parrot's beak" of Cambodia was not jutting to within 50 miles of Saigon and the massive raid made against the communist stronghold there was not really an attack against a "sovereign country."

Thanks, Seth, also. I was a bit confused by John's making you the grandfather. We've never been introduced! Shows you the silliness of him, I guess. And I too think what has happened is right, but we need to realize that the kids over there are not weighing in on right or left or politics at all. They're trying to do their job, for their country, and don't give a rat's ass about all of the arm chair assholes over here debating on pro's and con's. I guess that was my rant. People need to get a grip on reality, and that is that our soldiers are THERE, and we need to support them.

Seth: You pass inspection as a sane commentator on the current situation. And yes, Nanna has a right to endanger her grandson's life by saying things that might encourage further terrorist actions against our troops. Armchair I wasn't when I was in the service. I wanted to do back then what is being done now in the name of peace and the economic development of the Middle East.

Its also possible that Chirac and Putin have only been playing Good Cop Bad Cop with their partner, Bush, as a way of getting terrorists not to attack Americans on US or European soil in exchange for European "opposition" to US interests.

I sleep at night hoping that the whole Left-Right argument is really just a setup, like an oligarchy, so a group of nations like the US, France and Russia can guarantee themselves the loyalty, read partisanship, of 99% of the world's people. IChirac could really be our ally and his "multipolar" rhetoric could be designed to be just another "brand" of political product to be marketed by the same company against another "in-house" brand. Or France and the USA could be acting like Coke and Pepsi: marketing brown sugar water to the world in the expectation that the world will only choose between one of their two brands of "democracy."

Turnip

I have reached the conclusion that your existence isn't even worth acknowledging, so go ahead and whine to your heart's content.

Peterson

Vietnam is not Iraq. You are reminiscent of one of those self styled intellectual strategy experts who sit around all day rehashing Civil War battles or rewriting naval strategies of WW II(the big one, where they was t'rowin everyt'ing at us but da kitchen sink).

Get a life.

wow. most ignorant and sloppy poster i've ever seen. that includes those posts with gratuitous spelling errors. Firstly, i am damned glad the theocracy in Iran is on its way out. i hope for something better for the Iranian people. all i said is that it is not a dictatorship. that would be like calling china an islamofacist state. it is just silly and untrue. if you had read my post you would have realized this.
secondly, you obviously have no evidence regarding our supposed troops in syria and Iran. they may be there, but you don't know. you said "live with the fact that our agents are *probably* all over Iran and Syria ". how can i live with a fact if it might not even be a fact? you said probably.
I believe that Syria might be involved in all of this, we don't know for sure. And that is why most of us only speculate as to what is going on. we don't make outright claims based upon our hunches and then rant about how people don't understand our conclusions. the press is going to far with this vietnam comparison, i agree. but we, as the public, have a right to worry about our family members and friends who are in the gulf. I don't think i've ever aspired to be known as an intellectual on this site. i just make conclusions, based on what knowledge of history i have, and then share them with other posters on this site. i appreciate hearing their take on it. i don't get upset when someone has an opinion counter to mine. i do get upset when someone is ignorant, rude and doesn't take them time to read other people's posts. that is what trolling is all about. please, either join our discourse in a polite fashion, we'd love to hear what you have to say, or stop posting here.
secondly, you obviously have no evidence regarding our supposed troops in syria and Iran. they may be there, but you don't know. you said "live with the fact that our agents are *probably* all over Iran and Syria ". how can i live with a fact if it might not even be a fact? you said probably.
I believe that Syria might be involved in all of this, we don't know ofr sure. And that is why most of us only speculate as to what is going on. we don't make outright claims based upon our hunches and then rant about how people don't understand our conclusions. the press is going to far with this vietnam comparison, i agree. but we, as the public, have a right to worry about our family members and friends who are in the gulf. I don't think i've ever aspired to be known as an intellectual on this site. i just make cnclusions, based on what knowledge of hisotry i have, and then share them with other posters on this site. i appreciate hearing their take on it. i don't get upset when someone has an opinion counter to mine. i do get upset when someone is ignorant, rude and doesn't take them time to read other people's posts. that is what trolling is all about. please, either join our discourse in a polite fashion, we'd love to hear what you have to say, or stop posting here.

that was directed at mr. peterson, of course.

Seth: There are obviously people in the media who want to make the current situation another version of what their fantasies tell them the history of the American public's reaction to the Vietnam War was.

The fact that I obviously criticized you for something you hadn't said doesn't mean you have to whine and criticize me like there's something wrong with actually knowing what the Civil War battles were all about. You don't have to start criticizing "intellectuals" in general to get back at me for making a mistake about what your attitude was. I thought you were whining about the fact that a relative was a soldier in Iraq. My comments would have been valid if you were whining and it was wild and inappropriate to twice refer to the concept of "armchair" as if that isn't what 99% of people are in discussing world events.

and i apologize, the last part of my post is an accidental repeat.

John Peterson: "And yes, Nanna has a right to endanger her grandson's life by saying things that might encourage further terrorist actions against our troops."

You are a dispicable asshole.

So it looks like nobody here is a left-wing anti-American moron who believes in a "multipolar world". So I was rude and trolled for no reason. :-( Apologies to everyone. This was no fun. However, to the good conservatives out there, whom I really have no problem with, I still have a misgivings about the gratuitous use of the world "armchair" and the use of profane language. I think its naive not to discuss Syria in all of this even if we aren't given the intelligence briefings on the subject, and I think its highly appropriate to note that continued terror acts against US soldiers will only encourage covert and direct action against institutions like the Syrian government.

And its silly to assume that the Syrian border guard incident was not what it obviously was: the starkest possible warning to Syria to stop doing something that we all know isn't supporting peace and economic prosperity in the Middle East.

Peterson

Good, now that you have reread things, my own civility level has returned to normal.

I recently had a friend staying with me who has been involved in the Iraqi situation, and he has been in the service for 3 1/2 decades, including several years in Vietnam. He is a believer in the cause of liberty.

He was supposedly retiring, but was recently called away, I think like "once more into the breach".

Having received first hand accounts of the situation over there from him, I am more than supportive of our being there.

It may sound harsh, but while young people join the military for "the bennies", the bottom line is that when they sign the contract and take the oath, they are committing themselves to go to war if their government decides that it is necessary. That does not mean I am callous, because I do care about each and every one of the kids we send into harm's way, and I feel pain whenever I read of one or more of them dying or being crippled.

I do believe that because we can, and because doing nothing will bring our country a lot more grief down the line, it is our responsibility to secure freedom for those who cannot do so for themselves, and to educate those we free to maintain that freedom.

Our motives are not of a colonial nature and as Simon pointed out elsewhere, if we wanted the oil, we could have bid for it like our Euro "opponents".

The climate(I don't mean the weather) in Iraq and surrounding countries is not the same as it was in Southeast Asia, our overall motives and circumstances are different and as we will presently see, our capabilities for responding to interference from these surrounding countries are much better developed than they were in the 1960s and early 70s.

But we need to be doing what we are doing, and while some of the details need to be better worked out, despite what detractors say, we do hold the so called moral high ground.

despicable. sorry. still asshole though. "right to endanger?" You are sick.

Nanna: you really need to understand that your "supposed" relation to a soldier serving in Iraq does NOT make you an expert on foreign policy. Now I probably misread what you wrote as "whining" and, if I did, I am truly sorry for that, but the whining of "supposed family members" during the Vietnam War truly encouraged enemy generals to kill more Americans (it was shown that many "family members" and "former soldiers" that helped the anti-war movement back then were really just fakes).

It isn't a soldier's job to become a pawn in a political battle back home, nor is it the job of a soldier's family to play backseat driver during a battle.

I had relatives in Vietnam and I was pissed royally at the way they were being endangered by hand-wringing parents on TV. If I had a relative in Iraq now I would not by a long shot appreciate comments from you that might encourage whoever our enemies are in Iraq. As it is, I find it sad that America's "enemies" haven't seen the handwriting of a democratic Middle East written all over the walls after the April 9th fall of Baghdad. Whatever group is behind the killing US soldiers in Iraq will face a modern version of the Phoenix Program.

Seth you said
Sophia, since when did I give you the Idea that us Soldiers hated bush? Your daydreaming you silly cunt. Fuck off troll you can be sure if I saw an Iraqi comming to cut your throat, I wouldn't stop him, you ungratefull troll Don't you dare talk about what us army people think, fucked up bitch

I was expressing the opinion that my friend gave, also a young man who has saw more in Iraq than he ever expected. He wants to come home & he hates Bush. You are the one that is fucked up & what is really scary is you are to stupid to realize it...

NOT AGAIN!!!!

Sophia, you are quoting someone else!

C'mon, people, start READING here! Does the word "Seth" look like every other name on this page?

Sophia,

I have read several of your posts, and now I see why you post the content you do. It has something to do with reading comprehension or something, and it leads to the kind of uninformed trolling we can expect as such.

Naturally, there will be no retraction of Sophia's error, because it is not the liberal way to apologize for their stupid mistakes.
They just blather on, emptyheadedly saying whatever enters their feeble little minds, regardless of whether or not there is any truth involved.

John Peterson: You totally misunderstand me. Totally. This article, which we are commenting on (has anyone forgotten that?) is about two soldiers being killed. I read it and was sad. Signed on Command Post to see if anything else had been found out about this. Read the posts. All are political in nature, and blaming either right or left or getting further and further into why we're there, Syria, Arabs as a race, etc. My first point was that we're losing sight of the fact that two more American's have been killed. You mis-read me. I have not whined at all. Yes, I am worried about my grandson. Yes, I am worried about every American over there. Did I, at any time, say that we should wring our hands and beg for them all to come home? No. To speculate that this is a whine, or as Seth has intimated, that my grandson signed on "for the benifits" is a total degradation of my original post, which was concern for the fact that two American's have been killed, which on this blog, turned into a finger pointing contest.

You do not know what I know of foreign policy, nor if I am an expert or not. I never expressed anything on foreign policy, nor did I claim to be an expert. I do not need to be chided by you or Seth. The fact that you stated that I had "chosen to endanger" breaks the truth, and makes you a jerk.

GOD PLEASE BE WITH THESE BRAVE SOULS FAMILIES ....I could push the button today!!!

your still a moron.

berlin was a "modern" city!

the "culture" that developed in the early part of the last century accepted a level of barbarism that said it was a grand idea to hunt down and kill all the jews in the world, but no doubt it was a modern city!

all the "modern cities you pointed to are still run by a culture that----

1. makes women second class citizens

2. jails and even kills people found to be worshiping any other faith besides islam.

3. allows family members to murder its own women if they are raped by some dirtbag to retrieve family honer.

4. makes it clear the lives of non muslims are expendable

I could go on and on.

none of that is an effort to "propagate hate" it is an examination of thier culture.

I will say it again, puting out an opinion on the danger posed by a culture that has produced huge groups bent on destroying the west is not out of line.

would you have been so anxious to quash his opinion of german society in 1942?

and again this has taken this thread way off focus on the fallen soldiers, may they rest in peace.

rob..inNC: what are you talking??? button? So, who are you? This is totally sick.

Nanna

Please don't take what I said the wrong way. My reference to the "bennies" was not directed at all or even any specific young people serving in the military.
I would have responded more quickly to this, but after reading Sophia's post, my liberal tolerance level went to the top(I live in SF, and I deal with them as a matter of daily agony).
I have too many friends who are(or have been) career military people, in fact one of my closest friends is still in after well over 30 years, and still fighting on the ground.
Most of the people who serve are, in fact, doing so to serve their country, many others are there for the educational benefits, many just to have a job, many for the adventure and many for two or more of the above. I served part out of patriotism, part for the college benefits(in my time, that was only like $275.00 a month while attending college) and I think mostly because I needed the "adventure", being the least conventional and most easily bored member of my family.
But like you wrote, when you're there, it's a matter of doing your job.
I honestly think that I put things thus in my post out of irritation at the way liberal commenters always express the danger to our military people in a way that suggests that they were shanghaied off of street corners and forced to go to war. This angers me deeply, because it disrespects those volunteers who are actually out there in harm's way by being used by the same liberals to make partisan political comments.
I apologize if what I said came out, or was taken, the wrong way.

OK, all of the previous posts in consideration, let me make a few points.

a) It is not racist to slam the arab culture with the truth of their primitive state of being. To say I hate you because you are an arab, is racist. To point out that the arab world is culturally living little removed from the stone age, is mere statement of fact, not racism.

2) The core issue of this thread should be condolences to the families of all who have lost loved ones in this conflict. Sympathy and sadness at the loss of life by coalition forces and innocent Iraqis is appropriate.

III) The root cause of all of this, and decades of previous suffering, can be laid at the feet of Sodom Insane and his cronies.

4) Love or loathe Dubya, what we are doing is righteous and desperately needed at this point in history. Far more good will come of this than bad.

All respect and honour are due to these "kids" and their families. May they never be forgotten for their sacrifice.

War is hell. W Knows that from Nam where he
shot up a Lot of Cong before coming back to the
carrier. Wonder how many he killed then ? I know
a loss of the Others doesn't mean anything since
they are Wrong because they weren't born in the
US or fought for it so why do any mass graves
of unknown origin mean anything ? Could have
been fighting for the US against Iran or some
other supposed enemy. It gets Foggy when them
WMD's start floating..

what the f--k? I go out on Friday and Saturday night and the anti-American liberal asswipes try to take over.......damn!

sophia, the Evergreen educated, liberal cunt said, " was expressing the opinion that my friend gave,"

Right, bitch.....it's your opinion with an imaginary friend attached to it.

sophia, the Evergreen educated, liberal cunt said, " also a young man who has saw more in Iraq than he ever expected."

What....he thought it was going to be a gay lovefest?

sophia, the Evergreen educated, liberal cunt said, "He wants to come home & he hates Bush."

If you are his girl friend....I can understand why he hates 'bush'. However, I doubt he hates Bush.

sophia, the Evergreen educated, liberal cunt said, "You are the one that is fucked up & what is really scary is you are to stupid to realize it..."

Wow! Your intelligence shines through. You know, I've been out partying with people that have had way too much to drink....not a one of them is in such an ignorant stupor as you. I don't buy your story about a friend in Iraq....You are just a bitch with a liberal Bush hating attitude. You suck and you should go back to democratunderground.com , where you came from.

Seth.....you are 'right on'. Your contributions are greatly welcomed. Sorry about the libera, Bush hating, anti_American, stinky c--ts like Sophia. Ignore her and ..........aw, she'll probably hang around anyway.

To the person who called Cairo a "modern city": I wonder when you last visited Cairo...and I don't mean the tourist spots?

Or better, have you ever gone upriver? Stopped in a village or two?

Arab culture may not be the most backward in the world. But anyone who has spent any time in the Middle East cannot possibly be ignorant of just how far behind it really is. And there is very little excuse for the pathetic economies and backwards cultural attitudes.

Are the people inferior? Certainly not. But their governmental, economic, and social systems are woefully bad, including in nations with vast oil riches. Is every Arab nation a disaster? No. But the region, as a whole, can only be characterized as being in very sorry shape...and much of it is self-inflicted.

Sophia you said;
I was expressing the opinion that my friend gave, also a young man who has saw more in Iraq than he ever expected. He wants to come home & he hates Bush. You are the one that is fucked up & what is really scary is you are to stupid to realize it...

Posted by: sophia at June 28, 2003 08:29 PM

Your the one too stupid to realize that I just came back from there, so I know what I and most of my other brothers in arms think.
We aren't over there picking up garbage, or were we expecting an education, only to be tossed into a war.
We willingly joined the forces to make a difference in the world, most of us see the danger these islamic nut cases are to the world. We are there to stop them.
So sophia, don't you dare give me your opinion on how WE feel. If your pretend friend is over there, and he feels that way, tell him to quit before he gets one of us killed.

My condolenses to the families of the fallen soilders. My best wish for the men and their families who are serving in Iraq.

Correction:
My condolenses to the families of the fallen soldiers. My best wishes for the men and women who are serving in Iraq, and their families.

Simon Barnett:
//Only the "blood-for-oil" slogan was more stuid and less informed (TIP: If we wanted the oil that badly we'd have just bought it like the French and the Russians were trying to do).//

Seth:
//Our motives are not of a colonial nature and as Simon pointed out elsewhere, if we wanted the oil, we could have bid for it like our Euro "opponents".//

This does not make any sense. I have heard this arguement many times and it is wrong. Why? Buying Iraqs oil would have funded Saddams WMD development and subsequent domination of the middle east.

Domination of the middle east means control over 60% of the world's proven oil reserves.

60%?
huh?
do you know canada has the second largest oil reserves in the wold?
do you know Canada is as the last 4 months, the largest supplier of imported oil to the usa?

Canada is the largest energy supplier to the U.S., accounting for 94% of natural gas imports, close to 100% of U.S. electricity imports, and more crude and refined oil products than any other foreign supplier."

http://www.canadianembassy.org/trade/energygraphs1-en.asp

Anthony, don't bother with your idea that it's all about oil. It was for France and Russia, but it never was for the USA.

France was violating the trade santions, and skimming billions under the table with Iraq, therefore funding saddams millitary ambitions.

French connection
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0707/062.html

Do some looking before you stand on your soap box

In Germany after the fall of Hitler and the Nazis, there was a group of fanatics calling themselves the "Werewolves" that caused trouble blowing things up and murduring Allied occupation troops from 1945 to well into the '50s.

Although a pesky inconveniance the Werewolves failed to oust the Allies and revive Nazism and in due time they were wiped out.

History has a habit of repeating itself.

Contrary to what sophia thinks, they do more than garbage duty in Iraq:

BRIGADE CONDUCTS RAIDS IN CITY

MOSUL, Iraq -- Soldiers 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) executed a series of separate raids on homes in Mosul June 28.

The homes belonged to suspected associates of Abu Ammash (Wahabi Extremists). The soldiers detained 15 individuals and confiscated four AK-47 rifles, one 9mm pistol, one hand grenade, one artillery round.

They also confiscated various Ba’ath party documents and Republican Guard uniforms

TASK FORCE IRONHORSE LAUNCHES OPERATION SIDEWINDER

TIKRIT, Iraq – Soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division and Task Force Ironhorse conducted more than 20 simultaneous raids involving attack aviation, armor and infantry forces detaining more than 60 suspected opposition members and seizing multiple illegal weapons along with various military documents.

Operation Sidewinder is the third in a series of operations, the first two were operations Peninsula Strike and Desert Scorpion, focusing on sweeping through the task force’s area of operations to root out elements attempting to undermine coalition efforts to restore basic infrastructure and stability in the region.

The raids target former Ba’ath Party loyalists, terrorists suspected of perpetrating attacks against US forces and former Iraqi military leaders, and to locate weapons and ammunition caches. The nexus of paramilitary activity in central Iraq is located along an approximate stretch of the Tigris River from Samarra to Baghdad, and is the location of several destabilizing influences in the region.

No coalition forces casualties were reported in the raids. Sidewinder is an ongoing operation. More details will be released as they become available.

Alan

Dont know where else to put this but I believe both are interesting items

Middle East - AP

U.S. Begins Bid to Crush Iraq Insurgents
10 minutes ago

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

Buddy Bill is at it again with Wesley Clark

Clinton: Clark Would Make Good President

Email this story

Printer friendly format

Top Stories

Demolition Crew Member Dies in Collapse

AP Top News at 10:48 a.m. EDT

Balloonist Abandons Second Try at Flight

2 Militant Groups Announce Mideast Truce

AP Bulletin

By JAMES JEFFERSON
AP Political Writer
June 28, 2003, 4:15 PM EDT

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-clinton-clark,0,2651826.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

I just had a hunch we'd start seeing a war democrat.

sorry my cut an paste must have done it too me again.

mea ...

Blogger obie:

You knowledge is limited. You might want to do a little more research.

//huh?
do you know canada has the second largest oil reserves in the wold?//

As a matter of fact I do. 180 bilion barrels.

PROVEN RESERVES - are recoverable oil which geological and engineering information indicates can, with reasonable certainty, be recovered in the future under existing economic and operating conditions.

From Oil and Gas Journal (billions of barrels)
North America...50 (5.1%) ***
South America..78 (8.0%)
Europe.............16 (1.6%)
FSU.................59 (6.0%)
Africa..............73 (7.4%)
Middle East......660 (67.3%)
Far East...........42 (4.3%)
Australasia.......2 (0.2%)

TOTAL 980 (100.0%)

From the Wall Street Journal:
EIA: Canada's Oil Reserves 2nd Only To Saudi Arabia. - "While cautious about the new reserve estimates, Pursell said oil sands may be "a good contrarian investment" at a time most energy investors are focused on natural gas. "It's a good POTENTIAL source of hydrocarbons in this hemisphere," he said. "

http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,BT_CO_20030502_001648-search,00.html

They are not sure!!!

However, If you factor in the Canadian oil sands then the numbers change

North America...225 (19.5%)
South America..78 (6.8%)
Europe.............16 (1.4%)
FSU.................59 (5.1%)
Africa...............73 (6.3%)
Middle East......660 (57.1%)
Far East...........42 (3.6%)
Australasia.......2 (0.2%)

TOTAL 1155 (100.0%)

The middle east (660 bb) still has far more PROVEN reserves then Canada (175 bb) or North America (225 bb).

Concerning Total Energy Expediture & Imports
Our total energy expenditure is about 100 Quadrillion Btus/year.

-The oil and gas imports from all foreign sources amount to about 20 Quadrillion Btus of energy.
-We import almost 100% of our natural gas imports from Canada. We import 16% of oil imports from Canada.
-The gas and oil from Canada represent only 6 Quadrillion Btus. That means that about 30% of our oil and gas imports come form Canada.

According to the DoE:
In 2001 we produced 3,733,521,000 MWh
Our NET imports total 20,305,000 MWh (from all sources)

That means that about 0.005% of electricity comes from imports. That includes all foreign sources.

That makes 30% of our oil and gas come form Canada, and 0.005% electricity from all foreign sources.

So what's was your point?

Blogger obie:
// do you know Canada is as the last 4 months, the largest supplier of imported oil to the usa? //

Canada has been the largest supplier to the US of imported oil for a very long time.

Blogger obie:

We are now importing about over 60% of our oil from foreign sources.

Monthly Statistical Report News Release

WASHINGTON, June 18—For the first time, more than 65 percent of the U.S. demand for oil and its products has been supplied by foreign sources, the American Petroleum Institute reported today. Total imports in May were 12.6 million barrels a day (b/d), a 9.1 percent increase compared to May last year and 5.4 percent higher for January to May this year compared to the same period a year ago, according to the Monthly Statistical Report.

your figures are wrong.

in fact, alot of northern USA states aren't even on the usa power grid.

use new figures Anthony. not old ones. energy sales from canada now total amost 1.6 billion$ daily

These are new figures. You go do your own research. Start with the DOE. That's a good source. You guys just assume too much.

// your figures are wrong.//

All you've done is discount my figures without any proof. Do you have more recent figures? Then please post them. GO ahead prove me wrong. If you interested in an exercise in fultility, get me the right figures and post them.

Point is Anthony, Iraq war was not about oil.

Fact is, most of our energy imports come from Canada, and others exept Iraq.

it's not 2001 anthony

Go to the DOE and find a better number. You won't. In fact the electrical energy supply hasn't change in the past 7 years. Otherwise, you are just talking wihout anything to back it up.

The fact is that 30% of our energy imports come from Canada, not MOST.

The fact is that in 2000, 52% 0f our oil supply came from foreign sources

The fact is that in 2020 the US gov estimates that 66% of our oil supply will come from foreign sources

The world's only superpower has every reason to make sure that oil flows unfettered from the MIddle East. Does that make sense to you?

2001 are very recent numbers. Prove what you said. Show me the better numbers.

Iraq has 112 billion barrels of proven oil reserve. Enough to break OPEC, in the coming years. It is the third largest oil reserve, if you believe the Canadian oil sands estimates.

I will check back in a couple of hours.

Dont bother, this is pointless...

Anthony, try to make a valid point and quit spammiing the boards.

Anthony, what do you mean "factor in the oil sands"? they produce 357,200 barrels of refined oil a day.
if you want to factor in estimate however, canada would have the largest world oil reserves, for oil sand reserves alone are about 1.6 trillion barrels of recoverable oil.
Aberta's total oil production per day is
893,000 barrels. this includes the oil sand production.
Alberta's conventional oil reserves (non oil sand) is 60,3 billion barrels.
lets not even mention hybernia (east coast)

Anyways as I said anthony, the war in iraq isn't about oil. get it through your head

My nephew Anthony knows more than any of you! Tell 'em, Tony, what you told me. We're not over there for any damn oil, we're over there for the HYDROGEN! My nephew proved it. "It's the hydrogen", he said, but no one listened.

hey, where did my head go? it's so empty in here there is an echo

hay, where did my head go? it's so empty in here there is an echo

hey, where did my head go? it's so empty in here there is an echo

leave anthony alone. anthony has better things to do than hang around here all day. i searched the net and found a picture of anthony here:

http://fotm.rotten.com/fotm/butthead.html

warning - extremely graphic and disturbing

ROTFLMAO.

you are all wrong, that about sums up anthony nicely.

Anthony is clueless. If all we wanted was oil we would have invaded Saudi Arabia instead. The have more of the black gold and we have a better "cover story" for doing so.

I just found this in our files. A photo of the person you all refer to as X, aka turnip, while he was employed by a carnival, 14 months ago. DO NOT VIEW THIS PICTURE IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY VULGAR CARNIVAL ACTS.

http://fotm.rotten.com/fotm/limberoni.html

LOL. Investigator Smith and other sleuths. I admire your dedication. It's dirty work but somebodys got to do it. Congratulations.

Got to love how morons make statements about Vietnam by simply pulling BS out of their hats. Look at the idiotic and false statement below. this was made by a person who knows nothing about Vietnam. There have been a number of books written by N. Vietnamese Generals, as well as interviews. None has made the statements attributed.

My father served two tours and I have studied the war at the graduate level.

"One important thing to remind everyone about: the North Vietnamese Generals (and their Soviet and Chinese allied Generals) all admit that they tried to give up their terror against the presence of US forces in South Vietnam several times (it was costing them 10 times the lives as they were taking), but they were convinced to always redouble their efforts to stay in the war and kill Americans because the American media was encouraging them to do so. This is a fact."

"In Germany after the fall of Hitler and the Nazis, there was a group of fanatics calling themselves the "Werewolves" that caused trouble blowing things up and murduring Allied occupation troops from 1945 to well into the '50s."

What a misinformed comment. The werewolve organization was theoretical and never had any effect. The US called all mischief "werewolve incidents" and as it turned out not ONE US soldier was ever EVER killed by "werewolve" operative. More US troops have been murdered in a few months of occupation of Iraq then in years and years in germany. Moreover 90% of US troops killed in Germany were killed in incidents involving fraternization and/or alchohol.

Indeed of shootings almost all of them were US soldiers shot and killed by fellow US soldiers. Non shooting Jeep and truck accidents accounted for the majority of total deaths.

Learns some facts before spouting off bullgarbge. The werewolves never became an organization, they were an idea created before the end of the war ...the german youth ened up immediately embracing the americans and the thing was useless before the war even ended and there was even a "werewolve" incidents after June 1945 (the war ended in May)!

Do you want to know where you are geting your werewolve" disinformation? From the NEO NAZI's...they are the only ones to claim this organization ever did anything effective!

Lots of talk. No facts. We go by proven oil reserves, not by total oil reserves. Please note the definition of PROVEN oil resereves provided in my previous post and the comment from the WSJ.

Here are the words of a Washington Insider.

Hours after Congress authorized President Bush to use force in Iraq, an economic adviser under four U.S. presidents told Grand Rapids business leaders Friday that going to war "is probably the most bullish thing I can think of."

Former FDIC chairman Bill Seidman, who served during the Nixon, Ford, Reagan and the senior Bush administrations, said defeating Saddam Hussein and controlling Iraqi oil is "at least as important as eliminating weapons of mass destruction."

Seidman, a chief commentator for CNBC, said the prevailing view that a war would prolong and even deepen a bear market is the "most misleading to the market today."

"Oil prices fluctuating is a very large drag on the economy -- ours and the world's," said Seidman, 81. "If we are in Iraq, nobody can use oil as a weapon."

Speaking to a crowd of 35 at the Peninsular Club, Seidman had just arrived from a State Department briefing in which the Bush administration outlined for the first time a post-Saddam power structure in Iraq.

"I think probably the most bullish thing I can think of today is winning the war. We are planning to set up a MacArthur-like" government, said Seidman, referring to U.S. General Douglas MacArthur's temporary rule over Japan after its surrender in World War II.

"Getting control of that oil," and thereby gaining sway with neighboring Saudi Arabia's oil production, "will make a vast difference (to the economy) in all sorts of things, but particularly the price of oil."

"Having the two major oil producers not part of any radical Muslim or any other unfriendly government," he said after the speech, would be "a huge additional factor in the world's economy."

There's my nephew Tony again, he's such a smart boy. You know, he got a blue ribbon for his science fair project, I know because I was there when he got it. He is a genius, that boy!
Right there in the classroom, he won it. Did I tell you, I was there?
HYDROGEN, he made. Hydrogen! Right in the class! Now he talks about oil. Does my nephew Anthony know oil? No, he doesn't know from oil, he knows HYDROGEN. Tony, don't talk to these nice people about oil, stick to your subject. Uh, these kids today! They can't stick to what they are good at, and my nephew, he's good at hydrogen!
Did I tell you he won a blue ribbon at the science fair?
No?
Well, let me tell you, nobody knows hydrogen like my nephew, Anthony. Why he wants to talk about oil.... Hey, Tony.... Tell 'em again about the hydrogen.
Did I tell you he once won a blue....

Thanks Uncle!

NANNA,my response was emotional,and no I really would`nt nuke the region.But I would change the tactics our troops are operating under. Some need to remember what this thread was all about,what if it was your......RIP...

A small white handkerchief extended over the parapit, no not surrender, just wondering if it's safe for an innocent bystander to come out and not get caught up in the crossfire.

Ladies and Gentlemen it all got a bit heated then didn't it. Did we realy achieve much in terms of communication? Or did we all just "get our rocks off" by deliberately trying to wind each other up?

I can't claim to be disinterested as what happens over here has a potentially immediate effect on my health record; unfortunately listening/reading some of the rants (both left and right) here above might also effect my mental health.

With very few exceptions nearly every poster (Correct term?) has presented , at times, some cogent and possibly valid points. Then when being intelligence becomess too difficult (or boring) , of we go on a rant.

June 16, wow we go from Joyce to the Bard
"we are but soldiers for the working day....."

Seth glad to see you got a good sleep and return refreshed to the fray.

Nanna, my grandparents are sadly no longer with us, but my mother has great pride in her grand children, she also keeps an eye on her prodigal and she too prays that we all come home.

What is a Troll?
What is a Turnip?
Why are Frenchmen?

SECONDS OUT ROUND TWO!!

Ubique -
Definitions -
Troll - A spinner. Usually counter-clockwise.
The Cap'n would say these'd be found off the portside rail.
Turnip - A vegetable.
The Cap'n would say these'd be found ashore, usually in well fertilized soil, only those that appear on this blog are exposin' themselves to the harsh glare of the sun, and well deserved criticism and cynicism.
Frenchmen - Frenchman, plural.
The Cap'n would say these'd be okay if'n they weren't doin' that 'manage a trois' thingy with Germany and Russia. I'd be in that boat but for the fact I had an ancestor who chose a Native American to spend his nights, so I ain't all bad.

Why do I feel, out of all these posts, that there were only actually about 5 people posting?

Dave, Thank you I feel that if nothing else the Command Post visits are improving my education.

Johnymozart,
Probably because there was too much ranting and not enough brain being applied. I stand by my comments above about most of the bloggers contributing something before they explode.

June 16 how about some Kipling, it would inspire the right wing bloggers and cause blue fits amongst the "liberals"

Question : In the UK Liberals have historically been a main stream political party, albeit somewhere to the left of Attilla the Hun. Am I correct in thinking that in America, the term is used in a more insulting manner. The definition in English dictionaries is actually quite flattering.

Ubique - I'm an artist by avocation, a geek by vocation and a wordpainter by nature. I once considered myself a Democrat. Liberal could mean a lot of things, but like many words, some gather crap over time. What image gets conjured up in your mind by the word 'gay'? Get my meanin'? Liberal is a label. I thought Tony Blair was one of those guys, or am I being misled by the liberal press? LMAO. You can navigate the shoal of trolls with a 6th grade equivalence, but it takes common sense to gather anything useful from most of this stuff. I will admit I've learned a lot here, and most of what I've learned I'll never forget.

Just like the purpose of this post, which was to remind us that the cost of freedom for the oppressed is paid in blood, we have to remain focussed on the goal.

God rest the souls of our fallen brothers.

Actually ubique, in america the term "liberal" still has dozens of positive connotations. while on this post, and among many conservatives,using the term is merely a way of insinuating that someone is a communist/socialist, a moral relativist, hypocritical or lacking in backbone/moral fibre. This is, unfortunately, true of much of the democratic party, from which most liberals hail. However, some of us liberals, of which i consider myself one, define our liberalism using the traditional meaning. A love of represenative government, respect for the rights of man, tolerance for religion, strong belief in secularization and a forgein policy that upholds all of those virtues.
I consider myself a liberal, though certainly not a democrat. the democrats believe in bigger government and less personal resonsibilty that i would advocate. i do, however, agree with them on issues of healthcare, which i feel is too important to be privatized and on the importance of first ammendment rights, which most conservatives would also agree with me on. i disagree strongly with their stance on iraq.
i belive our government is good, but that we can work to make it better. that is why i am a liberal.
and how about some tennyson instead?
"Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred."