http://www.realwomenonline.com/article.php?story=20030627054459786

Yet another iraqi blogger, this ones a woman, seems more political than informative though :(

Anyone seen this yet? More horror.... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20030627/ts_nm/iraq_shooting_dc&e=1

A soldier was shot in the head today buying DVDs. This situation is spiraling out of control. We need someone over there with some vision. Now.

Mark said, " We need someone over there with some vision. Now."

Yeah, night vision and a steady aim.

The only way I can see this being eventually resolved is better communication with the Iraqis and also let them know, under no uncertain terms, what is 'demanded' of them.
Then search every square inch for weapons and terrorists. How ever many troops it takes. Encircle them and slowly move in...... don't let anything out unchecked. A shot comes from any house, mosque, or whatever, it will be destroyed.

Then, maybe, we can get back to work.

We sure dont need any of those saboteurs from bagdadbulletin.com in this equation, either.

achtung! ve demand to see your homes, because ve are checkink for dee terrorists! you vill allow us to invade your privacy and your lifes, or ve vill destroy your homes! achtung!

Posted by: Jeff "Himmler" B at June 27, 2003 01:16 PM

that's ridiculous -
there is nothing we can do to stop some casualties except leaving - no amount of troops can stop some of these things

we've decided its worth it to stay for awhile so the Iraqis have a decent chance of setting up some form of representative govt and so we have a future non-enemy (note i didn't say ally) next to Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia and some stability for increased oil produciton in the coming decades - and that means we are going to take another 100+ deaths in the next year - either its worth it or its not

That is a recipe for disaster, for the simple reason that we wouldnt follow through on the threat. There are two ways to try to occupy a people. The first is the way the Nazis had excellent success with. You remove or subvert all of the leading citizens, impose a puppet regime backed by your force, and mericlessly slaughter all the men (often women and children) should any seditition emege. It works well. The second option is to keep your people out of harms way and pit different ethnic enemies against one another while trying to build a central government. This is basically whats happening in Afghanistan, it worked well for the Briitish during their colonial days. Basically you have as little to do with the day to day of the locals as possible while creating police and militia groups of locals commanded by your officers and NCOs. As the central government grows in strength and experience you remove your forces apace, on a time table known to everyone to show good faith if possible. We are doing neither, we look like we're setting up to stay, 'harrassing' the locals, and not providing much in return. Bad planning, bad organization. Each unit is basically making its own decisions based on vague directives from the pentagon instead of a solid, definitive agenda the soldiers can rely on. Uncertainty is our biggest enemy right now.

X said, "achtung! ve demand to see your homes, because ve are checkink for dee terrorists! you vill allow us to invade your privacy and your lifes, or ve vill destroy your homes! achtung!'

That is about as ignorant as 'N I C'. If there was a city in the US that had snipers hidden all over, I guarantee you they would go house to house until they found all perps and I also guarantee you that anyone that was innocent would not have a problem with it, with the exception of anti-American liberal di-kheads.

Mark Buehner said, "That is a recipe for disaster, for the simple reason that we wouldnt follow through on the threat."

That's where we disagree. We do exactly as we say.

Mark Buehner said, "There are two ways to try to occupy a people. " The first is the way the Nazis had excellent success with. You remove or subvert all of the leading citizens, impose a puppet regime backed by your force, and mericlessly slaughter all the men (often women and children) should any seditition emege. It works well."

We are more interested in liberating, than occupying. Your 1st theory would work if Sodom were coming back into power. (Were the Germans this stupid when we liberated them??)

Mark Buehner said, "The second option is to keep your people out of harms way"

They can't do this from Kuwait.

Mark Buehner said, "and pit different ethnic enemies against one another while trying to build a central government. "

Oh, you start a civil war so you can get some work done?????

Mark Buehner said, " Basically you have as little to do with the day to day of the locals as possible while creating police and militia groups of locals commanded by your officers and NCOs."

Isn't that exactly what they are doing? And it's not stopping our troops from being sniped.

Mark Buehner said, "As the central government grows in strength and experience you remove your forces apace, on a time table known to everyone to show good faith if possible. We are doing neither"

Well, maybe that's because we haven't got to that timetable yet. The time table is 'when they are ready'.

Mark Buehner said, " we look like we're setting up to stay,"

They sure aren't going to be home for the 4th. Probably for the next 10 years.

Mark Buehner said, "'harrassing' the locals, and not providing much in return."

You gotta be shi--ing me. Harassing the locals???
Yeah, we're harassing them.......we keep blocking their bullets with our f--king faces. Throwing our bodies on their grenades. Trying to drive over and flatten their mines. We are harassing MF's.

Mark Buehner said, "Bad planning, bad organization. Each unit is basically making its own decisions based on vague directives from the pentagon instead of a solid, definitive agenda the soldiers can rely on."

Oh really? I assume that George and his administration told you that?? The troops call you every evening and tell you that???

Mark Buehner said, "Uncertainty is our biggest enemy right now. "

I DISAGREE!!!. I think it is the liberal f--ks that have tried from the beginning to undermine this whole humanitarian effort. Asswipes like some we see on this blog and the ones that put out anti-American propaganda, like on bagdadbulletin.com. which they claim is distributed in magazine form all over Iraq and the middle east.

Jeff, man, I gotta disagree with you here. I think Mark is dead on. The State Department is making every effort to screw this up. A significant number of them are old Clinton cronies and appointees. But as described in the Wall Street Journal yesterday, you have ordinary Iraqis watching us (until Bremer came in) appoint former Baath party members to positions of power (like the head of Baghdad University, for example) and wondering what the hell we're doing. This particular interviewee said that he was shocked to see his former prison guard and torturer going and shaking hands with a state department representative. We cannot afford to be making mistakes like this.

As for us dodging bullets and bombs, sure we are. And I agree that we need to find and destroy the killers. However, if to find one or two murderers we have to kick in twenty doors and disarm and otherwise harass people whose only purpose for weapons is to protect themselves, their family, and their belongings, we are going to see the tide turn against us quickly, now matter how good our intentions are.

The sooner we get things under some semblance of improvement, the sooner this will end. The port at Umm Qasr is already running greater than capacity prior to the war. By late September, the entire waterway will be dredged and all eight ports will be open. (Only two were in working order before the war started.) So progress is being made. The first thing we need to do is let ordinary Iraqis become involved. And the civilian admin (and I think Bremer is starting to do this) needs to put his foot the hell down and making demands of our government. Get me THIS in 24 hours $#@%!! etc etc etc without all the bureacratic nonsense. There is no excuse for power or water to be on. Not with essentially unlimited manpower and (for all practical purposes) a bottomless barrel of money) If its getting sabotaged, protect it better. For cryin' out loud, we have 150,000 troops there. We can't let some ragtag reprobates thwart our efforts to make Iraq a decent nation. I don't expect it to happen overnight, but we really need to make sure we're prioritizing better. No more defense vs. state crap. Clear chain of command. Civ Admin needs something? Say the word. Right now that is clearly NOT happening. Look at the news briefs coming out of the Pentagon and State Department every day! They can't even agree what site to set up operations for things!

This will happen, but we have to be open to constructive criticism; we can't blame the bad guys every time something bad happens, because now, we are ulimately responsible for what happens there, until some semblace of a government takes over the reins.

excuse me, no excuse for power or water NOT to be on at this stage.

As a number oif military experts - and I am not talking about inexperienced armchair generals, but highly experienced instructors at west point and the army war college -- have said, there clearly was not proper planning for the number of troops needed.

Last year Rumsfeld ordered the peacekeeping instruction program at the army war college abolished.

Now look at this unfortunate statement:
"The State Department is making every effort to screw this up. A significant number of them are old Clinton cronies and appointees. But as described in the Wall Street Journal yesterday, you have ordinary Iraqis watching us (until Bremer came in) appoint former Baath party members to positions of power (like the head of Baghdad University, for example) and wondering what the hell we're doing."

Excuse me but you are not follwing the facts johhny, it is defense and especially Defense appointee Garner and defense toady Chalabi who made those initial screw ups. what does the state departmment have to do with the defense dep. installing ba'athists?

As far as 150,000 troops, you are counting people in surrounding countries, adminsitrative people, people on ships, etc. We don't have anywhere NEAR 150,000 men patrolling Iraq.

I am not a liberal, but an old fashoion non-"neo" conservative. I am also a vet. But to blame the libverals is just bogus. What has happened is the "gee wiz" stripped down military people have forgotten history. They have not studied the occupation of Germany and Japan, or the lessons learned. Never mind a discussion about how Iraq is NOT like Germany or Japan (we already suffered more killings of US troops in Iraq in a few weeks then during the entire years of occupation of German and Japan.)

Jeff "Himmler" B said:

"If there was a city in the US that had snipers hidden all over, I guarantee you they would go house to house until they found all perps and I also guarantee you that anyone that was innocent would not have a problem with it, with the exception of anti-American liberal di-kheads."

Ah, no. Posse comitatus, anyone? Police only entering a home with a warrant? Due process? You know, non-Gestapo-like tactics?

Look-if another country came over here to steal our natural resources, every one of you would be trying to pick them off one by one. Why can't the Iraqis do the same thing? They are pissed off at us. Any idiot can plainly see what we did to that country. It doesn't take a liberal to fuck up things for Bush and Co., Inc. they did it themselves because they refuse to give a shit about anybody or anything except their own personal greed. The right-wing is 100 percent responsible for every American that gets killed in Iraq-not the Iraqis. they just want us the fuck out and they know that the only people who are going to get ahead in all this is the well-connected. Kind of like America. AND THEY DON'T WANT IT. Bush is a fucking lying murdering thieving coward. Let him send his daughters over there to drink sewer and get frisked and degraded by American troops or even get their heads completely blown off if they fail to stop at a checkpoint at night that doesn't have a flashing light on it. It's a mess and you did it! Well, I gotta admit-it's kind of fun to see all of your anger and denial, but acceptance will come and yes, the liberals will have to clean it all up. Just like daddy used to clean up the messes left by little Bushie boy and the daddy's friends after that...

Ned,
Let me clarify. I am not exclusively blaming liberals, which I think is pretty evident from reading my post , and personally I think Garner was not appropriate for the job, but you cannot deny that both CIA and State were not only advocating appointing Baathists, but appointing them. Defense did not appoint Dr. Ahmed, a former Baathists as chief of BU. State department officials had been meeting with Baath party officials for weeks until Bremer came in. For God's sake, State wanted Barbara Bodine, who was publicly ADVOCATING appointing Baathists. I think its particularly unfair to lay all the blame on either one.

And nedvet, let's see the forest for the trees. There are over 100,000 troops available to protect what needs protecting in Iraq. If we're sitting off shore while stuff gets sabotaged and blown up, what's the point? Yes, I KNOW they are not all IN Iraq at the moment, but there are more available to do what needs to be done.

And give Chalabi a break. The CIA and STATE both hate his guts and have tried to undermine both him and the INC from the beginning. I think the US could benefit from Iraqis seeing some familiar faces, instead of sidelining them. Sure, he may be a weasel, but if the Iraqis don't like him they can vote him out. That's what representative government's all about.

However, I agree with your last statements about the lessons forgotten about Japan and Germany completely, which was kind of my point. We're dropping the ball, and if we don't make more of an effort to correct them soon, we'll have no one to blame but ourselves.

george patton tried to use former Nazis when he was in charge of Bavaria.

June16_1904

Are your views on today's Baghdad influenced by thoughts of "unwholesome sandflats waiting to suck your treading soles, breathing upward sewage breath?" Do you think we can "just coast them, walking warily?"

With regards to the occupation of Iraq, I think both the left and the right can now see that it is to use military jargon:

A Cluster F**k

This isn't about left and right anymore Jeff B. Soldiers are dying please think this through again before going to war on a wing and a G.W. prayer
G.W. has blood on his hands, the blood of U.S. Soldiers....from his inept politics....

Not everything this admin does is bad...actually today I read about the telemarketer thing that G.W. is doing very good idea....Iraq however, very bad idea, a deadly idea as we all well know.....

To warmonger Jeff,

History and a basic 8th grade education should tell you that you cannot enforce lasting democracy through the barrel of a gun.

Establishing democracy is a war of capturing minds, not POWs....

Our forefathers had it right when they stated that the best way to establish democracy was by the will of the people and that we should let other countries discover this new concept and not go about imposing it like some Crusade....

As far as Anti-American liberals, and you debating the fact that you sound like a Nazi....

Half of the Nazi propaganda machine was about attacking the patriotism of anyone who disagreed with the state..., which looks strikingly similar to what you typed a few posts earlier....

Quotes by Goebbels which explicitly state this can be found all over the web....Please learn from Goebbels and history and try to be a nice guy....

Mike

The situation in Saddam Hussein's Iraq could, of course, have been written off as "none of our business". Why not, Iraq is thousands of miles away from the United States, right? Who cares if some tyrant is murdering and torturing his citizens by the millions, including small children, right?
It's none of our business.
You're walking down the street, and there are a couple of punks slapping an eighty year old woman around. There's blood on her face and she's pleading for mercy while one goes through her handbag and takes the last of her food money for the month. Who cares, right? It's none of your business, anyway, you don't even live in that neighborhood, so you just keep walking.
If you believe in one, then you believe in the other.
It's a pity that so many cowardly, misguided Americans feel as you do.

X ceptionally stupid said, "Jeff "Himmler" B said:
"If there was a city in the US that had snipers hidden all over, I guarantee you they would go house to house until they found all perps and I also guarantee you that anyone that was innocent would not have a problem with it, with the exception of anti-American liberal di-kheads."

X ceptionally stupid said, "Ah, no. Posse comitatus, anyone? Police only entering a home with a warrant? Due process? You know, non-Gestapo-like tactics?"

What the f--k does Gestapo have to do with stopping constant terrorist attacks in your neighborhood??? To compare the two, shows your lack of arguement. They wouldn't need a warrant, the people would happily greet them at the door. They want it stopped as bad as the next person.

turnip said, "Look-if another country came over here to steal our natural resources,"

What the f-ck does a country 'stealing natural resources' have to do with the situation in Iraq???

turnip said, "every one of you would be trying to pick them off one by one. Why can't the Iraqis do the same thing?"

Well, I never could figure out why they didn't pick off Sodom, myself.

turnip said, "They are pissed off at us." Any idiot can plainly see what we did to that country."

Turnip, you monkey. What did we do to their country?? Dig up and re-bury all the people that Sodom killed and threw in a big hole? Turn all the children in prison loose? Stop all the rape and pillaging?

turnip said, "It doesn't take a liberal to fuck up things for Bush and Co., Inc. they did it themselves because they refuse to give a shit about anybody or anything except their own personal greed."

God damn! You guys wonder why I get so pissed? Tell me how their own personal greed has benefited? None of your usual bs.... how????
You ignorant fu-k.

turnip said, "The right-wing is 100 percent responsible for every American that gets killed in Iraq-not the Iraqis."

Turnip, I regret that any soldier fights for 'anything' for you. You Sodom lovin' piece of feces.

turnip said, " they just want us the fuck out and they know that the only people who are going to get ahead in all this is the well-connected. Kind of like America."

The only people that are going to 'get ahead', is your boyfriends.

turnip said, " AND THEY DON'T WANT IT. Bush is a fucking lying murdering thieving coward. Let him send his daughters over there to drink sewer and get frisked and degraded by American troops or even get their heads completely blown off if they fail to stop at a checkpoint at night that doesn't have a flashing light on it. It's a mess and you did it!"

Turnip, .......You hate America, rally for the morons........

turnip said, "Well, I gotta admit-it's kind of fun to see all of your anger and denial, but acceptance will come and yes, the liberals will have to clean it all up. Just like daddy used to clean up the messes left by little Bushie boy and the daddy's friends after that... "

(deep breaths.....)

Seth,

Yes Cowardly Americans like Thomas Jefferson.

Mike

Does that inference come with a side order of definition?

Jeff B: Turnip, .......You hate America, rally for the morons........

Jeff, be I guess we should just be a fascist state that totally agrees with G.W.'s policies.

I think I have your argument style down pat though: Use lots of profanity and blame the left....

Kind of like Nascar drive fast turn left :)

Seth,

Maybe you need to read a little more about Jefferson...if you don't already get what I am inferring here....

Seems simple to me... As a starting point look into his ideas on foreign policy. Hopefully you will find them insightful, after all this guy only helped lay the foundations for America...

Jefferson was basically an isolationist....Some will always say the world has changed since those times, however common sense does not... IMHO realizing that you cannot force people to think a certain way forever seems like common sense to me...

Iraq does not want or need democracy right now, they are not ready for it....all the force in the world will not change what is in their hearts....

Mike whined, "To warmonger Jeff,
History and a basic 8th grade education should tell you that you cannot enforce lasting democracy through the barrel of a gun."

yeah, but you can force your own security through the barrel of a gun. What do you 8th graders recommend for an immediate stop to our troops getting shot in the f--king head every hour??????? Some of us went beyond the 8th grade.

Mike whined, "Establishing democracy is a war of capturing minds, not POWs...."

That's fine dumbass. As soon as we can quit aquiring head wounds by the hour, maybe we could sit down over tea and chat.

Mike whined, "Our forefathers had it right when they stated that the best way to establish democracy was by the will of the people and that we should let other countries discover this new concept and not go about imposing it like some Crusade...."

Yeah....that would have worked fine for the Iraqis:
"Hey Sodom! It is our will that you quit raping our women and children. It is our will that we want a democBANG!

Sodom: Anybody else got anything to say?

Mike whined, "As far as Anti-American liberals, and you debating the fact that you sound like a Nazi....
Half of the Nazi propaganda machine was about attacking the patriotism of anyone who disagreed with the state..., which looks strikingly similar to what you typed a few posts earlier...."

Yeah, you dumb fu-k, I'm attacking people that disagree with me wanting to kill innocent women and children. I want all Jews tortured and destroyed. I want to snipe the people that try to help the Iraqis. You liberal assholes make me sick.

Mike whined, "Quotes by Goebbels which explicitly state this can be found all over the web....Please learn from Goebbels and history and try to be a nice guy...."

Why don't you try to grow a brain. 'You' read some other persons sh-t, "all over the web". I can think for myself. I'll be a nice guy when I don't hear you liberal, anti-American, Bush hating, sacks of sh-t anymore.

Jeff B.,

Aside from your RHETORIC and hate speech....

Your point of everything getting shot in the head is all or God D**N fault isn't it.... We played with fire and got burnt....

To answer your question, how do Americans not get shot, answer is get the hell out of Iraq simple. Jeff B, you are the worst kind of radical, a totally ignorant and irrational one...Please atleast post some crumb of an argument in your posts....

Americans are dying guess why...G.W.'s policies
When G.W. stops being stupid, Americans will stop dying......very simple...

Furthermore, with every post you are proving how much of a hate storing fascist you are....

Case in point your last line:
'You' read some other persons sh-t, "all over the web". I can think for myself. I'll be a nice guy when I don't hear you liberal, anti-American, Bush hating, sacks of sh-t anymore.

This is my last reply, only to you however, because I know that I cannot force feed arguments into a cantelope.....
and you are slowly resembling one....

Jeff B.,

Aside from your RHETORIC and hate speech....

Your point of everything getting shot in the head is all or God D**N fault isn't it.... We played with fire and got burnt....

To answer your question, how do Americans not get shot, answer is get the hell out of Iraq simple. Jeff B, you are the worst kind of radical, a totally ignorant and irrational one...Please atleast post some crumb of an argument in your posts....

Americans are dying guess why...G.W.'s policies
When G.W. stops being stupid, Americans will stop dying......very simple...

Furthermore, with every post you are proving how much of a hate storing fascist you are....

Case in point your last line:
'You' read some other persons sh-t, "all over the web". I can think for myself. I'll be a nice guy when I don't hear you liberal, anti-American, Bush hating, sacks of sh-t anymore.

This is my last reply, only to you however, because I know that I cannot force feed arguments into a cantelope.....
and you are slowly resembling one....

Mike said, "I think I have your argument style down pat though: Use lots of profanity and blame the left...."

My profanity is a vent....venting is necessary when you are dealing with some of the most anti-American bastards I have ever heard. You see, where I live, it is respectful to serve your country. Your country is something you are proud of. We were sick during the Clinton years. Ashamed that something like that could go on. Then George Bush comes along. It's like night and day. He is a man of integrity and honor, something that every liberal anti-American on this site lacks. The unwarranted hatred for George Bush and sabotage that flows out of the liberals mouths (fingers) on this page, brings me close to nausea. Since I'm not in the same room with these f--ks, I have to vent verbally. Those that care about this country and basic human rights for all, will understand where I'm coming from. The rest of you.....I could really give a rat's ass.

Mike said, "This is my last reply, only to you however, because I know that I cannot force feed arguments into a cantelope.....
and you are slowly resembling one...."

Damn...it worked! We'll really miss you. Go back to democratunderground.com where you came from.

Did they get the INTEL Wrong Again ?? Arabs think
dogs are Unclean so are offended when search dogs
go through their houses looking for weapons.
WELL, Guess the're Gona have to get USED to it
because christians Like Dogs.. and they have been
Conqured to give them Democrazy SO, they better
accept it. Must Love the Bacon Bits treats the
dogs are given to reward them.

Is it true we are trying to make the iraqi's eat
Pork ??? LOL Love It... Better brain wash or
hypnotize them and make them western.

Mike

Point taken re Jefferson, but I have to disagree with your argument regarding a changing world vs common sense.
In Jefferson's time, they did not have instant global communications, instant access to the extensive information available today via broadcast and Web mediums or the ability to step into an oblong room with a row of perspex windows along each wall, sit down and less than twenty hours later leave the room and be on the other side of the world.
Today we do, and those technologies are available to all, to the good and the bad alike.
They did not have nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, much less the materials and the knowledge necessary to manufacture them available to any extremist regime with the money to buy either.
Saddam Hussein may not have seemed to many to be a direct, immediate threat to the United States, and now a lot of people are criticizing the Bush Administration because we haven't found vast warehouses of 55 gallon drums full of chemical and biological warfare agents or neatly stacked ICBMs tipped with nuclear warheads.
However, we did know that Hussein had recently had programs for NBC warfare in operation, we did know that he was sympathetic to the causes of terrorist organizations, we did know he was outspoken in his hatred of the U.S. We knew he was monstrous enough to use WMDs on the Kurds and that he saw nothing wrong with invading a neighbor and attempting to destroy all their oil fields, thus depriving them of their economy.
We also knew that he was playing footloose and fancy free with UN sanctions regarding his WMD programs, and we knew that he was illegally buying items that the sanctions forbade him possessing.
Eventually, leaving him alone would have come back on us, perhaps via the release of a lethal agent into the water supply of some U.S. region by terrorists, perhaps by the distribution of an aerosol or other biological agent in a highly populated area, perhaps by means of a dirty bomb in the middle of Manhattan.
I'll take preemption, thank you, rather than wake up one day to learn that as I slept, a couple of thousand more Americans were killed by terrorists.

Ever heard the term, "try it, you'll like it"?
We cannot know what's in the Iraqis' hearts, or better yet, what will be in their hearts after they have been given the opportunity to experience democracy, or even the communal existence of true socialism(not the communist brand, more like kibbutz style), for that matter.
These people are accustomed to being told what to do and, figuratively, how to breathe. They are used to a merciless government that couldn't care less about what they thought, a government that had no trouble with snuffing out the lives of a million of its citizens if they didn't like its politics or worshipped differently.
Even now, a wide variety of small newspapers are coming out all over Iraq, and they express their opinions without fear of government reprisal. Even those that criticize the U.S. can do so without a platoon of soldiers showing up to whisk the editors off to a torture chamber or shoot them out of hand. Do you think maybe this might be an intoxicating experience for them? Do you think that maybe they might want to see more of this alien concept called Freedom of Speech, and what it can do to change a country for the better?
When we've finally gotten representatives of the various factions among the citizens of Iraq together, do you not see any possibility that maybe they might accomplish something?
They need to be given a shot at it, we can't just kiss it off and never provide that opportunity.

From a strategic viewpoint, remember that we are engaged in a global war on terrorism, a war that needs to be fought, because if we ignore that particular problem, it will grow until we are overrun by it. 9-11 gave us a horrible "heads up" on that.
Taking Iraq away from the Husseins as we did sent a powerful message to a lot of countries that were either involved in global terrorism or were ignoring terrorist groups that used those countries as respites, banking centers or warehousing facilities for their weapons and explosives. Like a cattle prod, it got those countries moving to get those hot potatoes off their turf.
Formation of a "westernized" form of government, rather than a religious based or dictatorial one, would also have a positive effect on the entire region, the youth, which is the segment of any society with the capacity to change it, of more oppressive countries would envy the Iraqis, and for good reason, and, even if a violent revolution has to happen, that change would eventually occur.
One useful biproduct of that would be wide scale shrinkage of terrorist breeding grounds as those young people become more and more happy with their lives and freedoms.

Well,
They say that the health of a democracy can be judged by the passion of the debate amongst its citizens(and their right to freely express their views). The world can see at this site that Democracy is alive and well in the USA. although we do seem at times to wander far from the opening "Post". As a newcomer to all this I do have one question/ area that I need educating in.

Is it mandatory to slag off the other debators on a personal basis? It really must be fun I agree, or should we consider the issues and facts as we interpret them. Comments please.

I have to hit the sack now, mainly due to a summons from that quarter, so I must be brief.

Ubique, you Brits have the best expressions and sense of humor in the world, and have a great way of blending them innocently into the making of a point.
I need to remember "slag off".
As a matter of fact, a recent house guest of ours, an old and close friend who has a lot of background experiences that have done a lot to take away most of his ability to smile had never read any blogs until I turned him on to them.
He spent a lot of time at Command Post while he was here, and I haven't seen him look so happy in years, or laugh so much.
And he occasionally had a good time slagging off some of the left wingers here while also addressing the issues at hand.

Back to the point at hand, if I could. First thing, lets remember, it doesnt matter a whit what we think of the situation, or what the legit truth is, it matters how the Iraqis perceive what is happening. The reason I bring up historical references so often is that this scenario is not by any means new. From our point of view, we have done the Iraqis a great favor (very likely a good argument), but that is immaterial at this point. Much like children five hours after Christmas morning, the relavent question is What's Next? We can whine and bitch about the fairness of the question, but the bottom line is that the Iraqis are rapidly running out of gratitude, and we better do something about that. We can kick in doors as much as we want, but unless we are willing to 'passify' the Iraqis, we better come up with a better game plan. Let me repeat this (and if you need further study, consult the excellent read The Transformation of War, by Martin Creveld) NO NATION IN THE 20TH CENTURY(OR 21ST) HAS SUCCESSFULLY PACIFIED A DETERMINED NATIONALIST STATE. Not the USSR, not the USA, no-one. I can easily site chapter and verse about how Iraq is rapidly immatating the Russian experience in Afghanistan, or the Chinese in Vietnam. We need a gameplan.

don't feed the trolls (turnips)

i found a picture of jeff b:

Jeff B in a calmer state

i found it

That is definitely crossing a line someplace, and if Jeff B ever ran across your sorry ass someplace and knew it was you who posted that pic with reference to him, he would be well within his rights to beat you to a bloody pulp without so much as a "how-do-you-do".

anthony would say this was all because of bush. clinton lied. vote for gore in 2004 cuz he invented the internet

"he would be well within his rights to beat you to a bloody pulp"

Only if "i found it" were physically attacking him or was showing intent to cause physical harm, Seth. Grow some brains.

Seth is an idiot:

you(with a small y) are probably also various other anonymous dirt bags, including "i found it".
I suppose that posting as you do makes up for opening your mouth to people in person, which would probably get you "bitch slapped" by even the tiniest of women(assuming you aren't a woman yourself). You probably got tired of being beaten up in the schoolyard by the class nerd(or his girlfriend), and decided that rather than experience the same pain and humiliation as an adult, you would hide safely behind your PC.
I have one brain, and it serves me extraordinarily well, my cretinous friend. If your species needs to have "some" brains, it probably means that the usual allotment of a single one is not enough to get you through your indubitably pitiful, lifeless existence.

I found it said, "i found a picture of jeff b:"

Ah....and I have found some current pictures of thee!

(If you are offended by vulgar, liberal acts, do not view these pictures.)

http://fotm.rotten.com/fotm/butthead.html

http://fotm.rotten.com/fotm/limberoni.html