No Kidding!

We, otoh, have promised to recognize Iraq's territorial integrity as a premise for the invasion.

Complicated place, the Middle East.

That part is true, Bush did say that there would be no cutting up of Iraq's borders, however, that does not exclude development of provinces within the borders

Don ! Are you using covert tactics on us here?

Key will be if a Shia dominanted parliament decides they need to squeeze the Kurds out of Kirkuk. The control factor in that town will be of more importance than any feelings of independence.

The Kirkuk question is already settled on the ground. The Kurds are going to "cleanse" the area, and we're going to let it happen.

Which will give the Kurds access to oil.

Watch what happens then.

for DaveD: Are you having some problem understanding what's going on in Kurdistan? It's not as though you weren't warned long since, after all.

Don,

With you - it's the 'P' word, and it isn't pessimism, it is PATIENCE. For a portside puker, you don't seem to pick up on stuff real well, do you?

for Dave:

Whenever you're ready to discuss what's going on rather than these puerile attempts at personal characterization, I'll be pleased to oblige.

In the meantime, you're going to be ignored. Deservedly so -- there's too little Time to discuss content-free matters.

The Kurds have been demonstrating a single-minded Patience for nearly a century. But don't simplisticly assume that they are champing at the bit to become Free Market Republican Conservatives in the process.

Complicated sort of place, the Middle East.

//The Kurds, according to international human rights groups, constitute the largest people in the world without a state of their own;//

So bloody what? There'll always be *some* group that is "the largest people in the world without a state of their own."

There is something inherently racist in the idea that your birth determines how you want to be governed.

To suggest that the Kurds cannot coexist peacefully with other ethnicities is to promote the ghettoization of the world. And as the Jews can attest, the separation and isolation of ghettos breeds contempt and distrust.

The United States, the United Nations, and others are founded on the premise that all of humanity shares certain common values. These values, as enumerated in the US declaration of independence and the UN charter, while compatible with many cultural outlooks, retain merit separate from any cultural outlook. For a government that is to be intentionally founded with humanitarian principles in mind, to accept the bifurcation of the populace on genetic grounds is to reintroduce long disproven beliefs about racial superiority.

I think I'll stop repeating myself now.

TBox has made a great point. If every group
of people wanted an independent country of
their own, then a lot of countries of the world
would be heading down the road of the
Balkans. Did not quite solve all the problems there
either.

I think the Kurds should learn to live in Iraq, and
the Iraqis need to understand that the Kurds as
as Iraqi as the Arabs of Iraq.

When I made the "Jews can attest" comment, I was trying to draw reference to Medieval Europe, where the separation of Jews into ghettos was one of the contributing factors (one of many) to the anti semitism that ultimately led up to the holocaust. Ironic that they *asked* to be placed in ghettos. Unfortunately, it also segues us right into a discussion about Israel. I wasn't alive to see the formation of Israel, and cannot comment on it intelligently.

The modern Israeli government seems more capable of judging dispassionately with respect to the treatment of its citizens than anything the Arabs have offered... even Turkey, which thanks to Ataturk is often pressed forward as the model Muslim secular society.

I'll throw out some random numbers: Israel has a 97% literacy rate, compared to Turkey's 82%. At the same time, Israel has a non-Jewish population comprising 20% of the population. Turkey's non-Muslim population amounts to 2% or less, depending on your source.

In other words, the Israeli Jewish government has done a better job of educating Arabs than the Arabs have educating themselves.

So while I may disagree with some of the principles that found Israel, I cannot disagree with their results. (Barring all the horrible incidents the Arabs say are hiding just beneath the surface, the veracity of which I do not have the energy to verify, either way..)

yeesh. Verifying the veracity -- what other crimes shall I commit today?

Don,
You said:" Whenever you're ready to discuss what's going on rather than these puerile attempts at personal characterization, I'll be pleased to oblige. In the meantime, you're going to be ignored. Deservedly so -- there's too little Time to discuss content-free matters. The Kurds have been demonstrating a single-minded Patience for nearly a century. But don't simplisticly assume that they are champing at the bit to become Free Market Republican Conservatives in the process.

UHHHHHH. Don. Could you please point out where I said anything of the sort? AMOF, I pointed out here:
http://www.command-post.org/archives/007267.html

that the Kurds are capable of living amicably with all of their neighbors. Are you pulling my leg, or???

As for your post here: You said:" Which will give the Kurds access to oil. Watch what happens then."

Like the Kurds are NOT entitled to profits from the oil (which I believe they are, and are OWED back $ which they have not received)? Just EXACTLY what are we supposed to be watching out for here?

BTW: Did you have to look up the word - puerile? I'm not sure which statement that I made was deemed to be 'puerile', but you tend to discuss anything BUT the subject, which can be a tad juvenile IMHO. You wasted a few words all on your own getting to some sort of a point. So, I won't ask you to concentrate too hard, okay?

I'll leave it at that. Your posts seem to generate more questions than answers, as usual. If you think that you can completely ignore me, fine, but don't continue to use your hit-and-run tactics either, okay?

Yea, what Tbox said...

I'll throw out some random numbers: Israel has a 97% literacy rate, compared to Turkey's 82%. At the same time, Israel has a non-Jewish population comprising 20% of the population. Turkey's non-Muslim population amounts to 2% or less, depending on your source.

In other words, the Israeli Jewish government has done a better job of educating Arabs than the Arabs have educating themselves.

if you read this statment it sounds so stupid, first of all what does this have to do with the kurds, thats i would like to know ? secondly turks are not arabs my brother ?thirdly if you have looked at turkey's record or had the slightest idea what turkey has done not only to kurds but also to other minorities and especially christians you would not put turkey and secular society in the same page!
i would like to know why a nation of 40 million people which have levaed in kurdistan for thousandsof years do not have the right to ask for their land back which was takin of them in 1925 bu louseanna treaty?
the fact that the Kurds have never been treated as first class citizens, they were denied their identity, culture and language they were numerous genocides(halabja,anfal,silan..)ethnic cleansing , bulldozering of their villages, displacment of kurdish populations is occured because they were not governing themesselves. this has also created deep racial hatred towards arabs, peersians and especially turks which makes the Kurds cannot cooexist with this ethnicities.

whoever said that the kurds want oil? they dont have a use for it. they have small vilage lives which is much better than the lives of more developed nations seeing as the lives of the people of these nations are spent in gluttony and waste.