How about Dominique (he's a guy) de Villepin touring the nations of Security Council members and actively seeking their opposition to the US in the UN?

That didn't happen? That's how a dear "friend" acts?

How about TotalFinElf's oil contracts with Iraq in complete contravention of UN sanctions that France supported? Notice they don't actually deny that.

I tell you what. I'll put as much stock in THEIR denials as the French media has put on OUR war aims and actions. LeMonde, for example, routinely runs editorial cartoons that put the Arab News to shame.

The French can bitch all they want about our media. Tough tarts. I can bitch all I want about THEIR media and I can make the same claim: the French government is behind all the anti-American garbage they've been running for the last two years.

This strikes me as a government in a state of high anxiety and panic.

France's commercial interests in Iraq were linked to keeping Saddam Hussein in power. They protected Hussein in at least the folowing ways:

1 By turning a blind eye to the Hussein regime's contraventions of the oil-for food program, while Iraqi people starved and were murdered.

2 By repeatedly opposing the imposition of sanctions against the regime in the UNSC.

3 By obstruction and sabotage of the allies attempts to enforce the will of the internaitonal community in regards to disarmament.

4 By providing diplomatic cover for regime members by the issuing of French visas,not passports, from the French embassy in Syria.

This is how history will record France's cowardice during 1992-2003, including Chirac's personal involvement with Hussein and his family.

The truth will come out. It always does.

And how about the disgusting untruths about the US that I have read in the government controlled French media ???

People should be aware that Chirac is always playing to his domestic audience. He's a total tart.

The US knows that France is in a weak position at the moment. France cannot afford its socialist dream by relying on domestic tax receipts, and must maintain revenues from its state controlled oil and armaments industries. The US strategy as I see it is:

1 Doing nothing to discourage the boycott of France as a tourism detination, French products and services by American consumers.

2 Permitting the continued slide of the dollar, which will impact very heavily on French exports.

3 Destroying, as much as possible, France's arms and oil industries, Iraq being a good start.

4 Personally shaming Chiraq in front of the world, by reference to classified information already discovered in Iraq.

5 Remove France from the UNSC - this country does not deserve to be there anyway.

6 Work with UK, particularly Blair, to gain control of the EU and to link the EU with US (cross Atlantic) aspirations, along with the wishes of the vast majority of EU nations. In doing this, dilute France's role.

7 Destroy or dilute France's role in NATO.

Fulfilment of these goals in the medium term will push the French economy into a deflationary recession (France's economy contracted last month), making it easier for the US to bring in Germany as a medium to long term ally. Chiraq is there for another 6 years and has made France an enemy of the United States. After all, the Germans have more potential and Schroeder is already a dead man walking.

Chiraq has done this to France. He had a clear choice - side with the great western democracies, or protect a dictator. He chose the latter and in doing so removed himself, and his country, from Washington's list of trusted allies. French people can ocngratulate themselves all they like abou this but they will soon see what the consequences of Chiraq's choice are.

Would definitely NOT want to be French at the moment. OK, I'm out of here !!!

Someone call a WAAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance!

I have more questions than comments -

WaPo article - U.S. officials said the French program is believed to be defensive in nature, and some of them expressed consternation that its inclusion in the WINPAC report was disclosed to a reporter. It could not be learned whether the Bush administration has objected to, or sought information about, the French program.

There is a vaccine for smallpox. I got a smallpox vaccination in grade school in the 50's. Can someone PLEASE explain why these folks need 'live virus' for ANY reason?

Maybe there's a lab rat out there that can address this one.

I didn't have to go very far down the list before coming up with that one. There'll be more. Stay tuned.

Research into an improved vaccine? The current smallpox vaccine isn't very fun.

Let's not get too high and mighty about France looking the other way while human rights abuses occurred, in deferrence to its commercial interests. We did that with Iraq ourselves, before Iraq became too much of a threat to our interests. Remember the US gave Iraq "WOMD" to fight Iran, and don't forget that ancient photo of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein. Or the CIA's early support of Saddam Hussein's rise.

Unfortunately, Fance acts a lot like us at our worst.

Tbox - Could you include some more information? I don't remember it being all that bad. I got a pock on my arm. Explain please, why there is a need for any lab to have the live virus. Are you a lab tech? I said lab 'rat', and thought maybe you took offense.

Dave

Re: why we need to keep small pox around.

That vacination that you got in school doesn't work anymore. The vacine is only effective for 10 years.

The fact that you are not protected is not a big problem because there is no small pox in the wild anymore. But there are samples around that could be released, either on purpose or by accident.

There is a pretty good chance of an accidental release from Russia as the old Soviet Union compleatly ignored the anti bio weapon treaties and huge factories for making bio weapons. Factories that are now rusting away largly unguarded.

The U.S. needs to keep live virus samples so that they can make the vaccine again if it gets loose.

They also need it so that they can make vaccines for the front line people that are most likely to get exposed if there is an attack or accidental release. ie health workers and soldiers

It is only safe to destroy the last sample when you are ABSOLUTLY SURE it is the last sample.

adrian lesher

we didn't sell Iraq WMD for the war with Iran. We sold them intelligence reports about Iran. Big difference. That's one of the most-propogated lies that was flying around before the war, but has been roundly refuted, even right here on the command post.

And Rummy might have shook hands with Hussein, but he sure as heck didn't sell him a nuclear reactor like the french did...

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/vaccination/facts.asp

No, I'm not a lab tech. When you said lab rat, I thought you meant an actual lab *rat*, i.e, one of the subjects for various strains of smallpox and other virii used in virulity tests. I was wondering how they would type. Squeak.

And I'm not trying to defend France, per se, just throwing stuff out there.

This reminds me a lot of the Democrats whining about people questioning their patriotism. Nobody's actually done that, but why not prevent such an attack by whining about it as being "underhanded" in advance.

In both cases, the facts speak for themselves. It's hardly a smear campaign to recite facts, and the facts in this case fully support the conclusion reached by many outside the Administration that the French have acted like a bunch of treacherous whores that need to be diplomatically and politically bitch-slapped.

Vaccine - a French word. France is mentioned in 3 paragraphs in the WaPo article. One of those I copied into an earlier post. One of those that I did not copy quotes a Frenchman's suspicions that if the variola (smallpox) were present in France, it would be in a MILITARY lab. Hmmmm. Defense - military. I'm really puzzled now. Anybody else?
OBTW - while we're talking WMDs here, the article also mentions IRAQ. An insightful article from a number of angles, esp. re: Saddam's program(s).

Yo Adrian --

President Ronny sent Rummy to Iraq to offer military guidance and intelligence for one reason -- to prevent Iraq from being overrun by Iran, which would have happened had we not intervened. In fact, we had to take Iraq off our list of terrorist nations at the time to provide such help. The world and its oil-based economy could not afford Iraq in the hands of Iran's fundamentalist regime no more than it could afford Kuwait in the hands of Saddam's regime.

Compare the motives of France today (weaken US influence while increasing French influence) and the US back then.

Well said beachbum. As they sow, so shall they reap. The french are famous for denying the truth even when it slaps them in the face. Fuck em!!!

Jean-David Levitte, Ambassador of France to the US, states that the charges "all rely on information from 'anonymous administration officials.'" Really?

Not exactly. Concerning the Newsweek article about French-made Roland missiles found in Baghdad the French letter says "On April 21, Newsweek reported the “possible” discovery of Roland 2 missiles by coalition forces in Iraq and implied that they had been manufactured in 2002. A charred Roland 3 missile launcher was also allegedly found."

Here's what the Newsweek article says "LT. GREG HOLMES, a tactical intelligence officer with the Third Infantry Division, told NEWSWEEK that U.S. forces discovered 51 Roland-2 missiles, made by a partnership of French and German arms manufacturers, in two military compounds at Baghdad International Airport. One of the missiles he examined was labeled 05-11 KND 2002, which he took to mean that the missile was manufactured last year. The charred remains of a more modern Roland-3 launcher was found just down the road from the arms cache. According to a mortar specialist with the same unit, radios used by many Iraqi military trucks brandished MADE IN FRANCE labels and looked brand new. RPG night sights stamped with the number 2002 and French labels also turned up."

Nothing anonymous about Lt. Greg Holmes, eh Frenchie? France is stupid. By opening the can of worms themselves they force the Bush administration to really look into each of these charges. Frenchie better hope he's right.

greg - Frenchie is WRONG on many counts, and I hope 'we' are looking into each and every one of these issues. WHY? Because if the French want to air their dirty laundry and make an 'international' case out of this, so be it. I hope they washed their panties!

vaccine is a french word, but lets not forget, it was a french canadian who invented it. Nothing to do with France per se.
get your booster shot, there are plenty of things like mumps, chicken pox, measels, etc that your immunity shot may not be valid for anymore.

Teenage chicken pox for example, is on the rise, and it could render your kid impotent for the rest of his life, as well as bad scars. Talk to your doctor.

Hopefully, things like polio will be gone forever this decade, and there will be no need for the vaccine, but, as long as someone out there has it, and mostly it's from 3rd world muslims, then your child is still at risk.
I know what polio does, My mothers brother who is (was) about my age, a bit older got it, here on the canadian praries, lost the use of his legs, then died he was 32 years old. he was born in 1954

Bubba,
I got the Dr. Salk treatment in grade school (parochial, if you can believe THAT). The story in WaPo intriqued me however, esp. the part about Camelpox in IRAQ.
OBTW... PtG is hangin' in the Jessica Lynch thread...

Has anybody ever seen this guy:

http://www.shanfan.com/nongymn/disney/drawing/lumiere3.jpg

and this guy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2448455.stm (scroll down)

in the same room?

He's still on that topic dave?
LoL I've been too busy to pay much attention to PtG. He's just an idiot.

I don't follow what your trying to say spawn.
what guy?
What nic?
I guess I haven't been paying much attention in the last few days.

back to the pox thing.
I was sure I had my oldest son innoculated when he was a baby.
It turns out I did, but, his immunity wore out. He got teen 'chicken pox' It's amazing how fast that stuff can affect a person, a matter of hours.
Thankfully, although he was laid up for quite some time, as it is very painfull if you get it during adolesence, or adult years, he din't suffer the worst that this disease can bring, namely sterility. His face was also spared from scars, But he has some nasty ones on his body.

People don't realize that these things, used as a bio weapon, can cause terrible things to people.
These are things saddam was trying to develop.
It doesn't take big stores of missles, chemical war-heads to deliver this. All it takes is a purfume bottle, and exposure. It then spreads just by contact.
Using these base samples to develop stronger strains that resist vaccine is truley sinister.
Here, in the west, we use those samples to develop vaccine, study them to prevent death, not make it.

This is another thing that bugs me about these democrat protesting idiots. They don't want to protect their children. They cry about an innoculation program.
Maybe they need to see what these things can really do, then they will see the reason why mad men like saddam need to be stopped.

let's make it a law that all liberals cannot be vaccinated, maybe then they will "see the light"

Spawn, do you mean the resembelence of the candle stick man and De Villepin?

I'm having a brain stall day it seems,
It's like a joke that "goes over my head"

I'm not in any way shape or form trying to pick on you, I just don't get it.

What I find amusing is the open letter
says this is all a campaign by the
"Bush Administration." When I read the "false claims" they are coming from the press. So
I guess the gubbmint reely does control the
media. Just like in say....France
Bwhaaahaaaahaaaa

I did read that article in that second link, and my question to De villipin is,
Why did you then state in later press releases that " France would veto any military action against iraq" .
To me, that means that the UN was at that point useless, and that France was undermining the purpose of the UN, and in effect, told the world that france would plug it's ears to any further discussion.
I have had stupid discussions like that with my children as they were groing up.
They would take a temper tantrim, and no matter what I offered them, they would say NO.

Dad: "Go say sorry to your sister" Boy: "no"
Dad: I'll give you some Candy" Boy: "no"
Dad: "I'll by you a new bike" Boy: "no"
Dad: "fine then, go to your room, and stay there till you say sorry to your sister"

Boy: (after sitting in his room for hours)
"it was her fault for telling me what to do"
Dad: "She was right in telling you not to play with that bad kid, she's your sister, and was just looking out for you"
Boy: "she can't tell me what to do"
Dad: "well I can, so go back to your room, and your grounded untill you understand and apologize"

I know this seems stupid, but, it sure seems this is how politicians behave sometimes

This is a good sign. It means that France cares about its friendship with the US. The next step is for the Bush Administration to make some moves that indicate it values the friendship, too., without admitting lying or wrongdoing. Then, we can get on our way.

We do not want to lose France. Sure, they are an unreliable ally. In the end, however, we are friends. France stepped over the line with regard to Iraq, but a permament disruption of the US-France alliance. would be terrible. It would mean France would have to face terrorism alone.

That said, it will be much easier for Americans to support France in the future if France admits to some wrongdoing with regard to Iraq.

OK, OK, it needs a little work...

RF,

France have been treating Americans like shit in France for decades... Now they have gone and done it, let them swim in the shit they dumped.

As far as I care, France is a truly useless ally and should be targeted the most severe... Russia, well communist shit never changes, and well, Germany need to be reminded with a warning that you don't want to end up like France or Russia..

mark,
France has been occupied again.
If you look at the demographics of it's population, they are on the verge of being over run by the muslim faction.
what you hardly ever see, is that in the smaller frence towns, women are being raped, harrased if they don't cover themselves in the traditional muslim burka.
It's true, there are many stories around of this type of thing.
Crime is very high, murders, theft, etc.
Birth rates, every 3rd born is named mohammed, instead of the traditional "pieirre"
it's getting close to 25% of the population of france is muslim. saturation point of when muslims rebel and force government change.
This could also be a reason for frances' unwillingness to back a war against iraq.
lets not forget, that no matter how bad saddam was, western agression against a 'muslim" country is far worse in the eyes of muslims.
Germany faces simular problems.
Someone said once that France is a "christian" country, this simply isn't true anymore, less than 8% now are practicing christians.

How's that for a different spin on things? LOL

Bubba: Emphasis on "practicing," eh?

Can I ask for a reference?

//what you hardly ever see, is that in the smaller frence towns, women are being raped, harrased if they don't cover themselves in the traditional muslim burka.//

I'd like a reference for this, too. I think I believe it, but I want to learn more.

Never mind on that second one.

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001115.html

Sorry, but I have enough trouble following the Command-Post to be reading all the other blogs, too.

SHIT! I'm bein' WAY articulate over on the Jessica Lynch thread, and you two are over here discussin' rapin' and various and usundry other issues of global significance.
Tbox - If you for a moment think Dr. Bubba is outaline with his line, give it a yank! He's gotta head for the minutae of the moment, and a red-neck outlook to go with it. LOL

Hee, I tried, Dave. I found a number claiming that 90% of France was Catholic as of 2002. My theory is that Bubba is putting emphasis on the "practicing" part, varying definitions of which could put the percentage at anything from 0 to 100.

I want to see his particular source so's I can see his particular definition.

In other news, I am now officially despondent. Browsing around the link to parapundit I did puts in me righteous anger... and fear. The state of the world is truly grim.

France was exploiting Saddam's Iraq as a 'colony' like the imperialists that they wish they still were... the mass graves were their fault as their support for Saddam perpetuated his regime and it's crimes they ( and CNN ) were aware of... the truth is so ugly because it was always all about French-Oil all along and they traded profits for lives...

Screw them.

Tbox - Being from a 2ndgen FR/CAN Catholic family, I can affirm that Bubba is talking about "practice'. The Church in France has been on the decline for years. I would believe Dr. Bubba's assessment. Whereas, the Muslims - what is it, like 4 days a week for public worship? If that ain't enough to throw the fear of God (LOL) into those French panties, I don't know what will!

T-box,
I forget the page I read the info on, but my mind tells me it was something I read while i was studying up on muslim activities in the world, so this tells me I must have linked up to it Via
www.faithfreedom.org
The person who writes this page is spot on about Muslim/islamic events. His links are reliable, and you will find it linked there somewhere.

And yes "praticing" catholics.
By what i said, "muslims are clsing the gap in France, that being they're close to 25% of the population, that means 75% or a bit more are non- muslims, 8% of the total are "praticing" catholics, active in church etc. and the rest are either inactive, or have reverted to pagan ways, other religions besides muslim and christianity.

I suppose I should post this somewhere on faithfreedom.org, but navigating it is beyond me, for some reason. Call me impatient.

I have one major objection to a statement made at that site: that Islamic terrorism is due to the bad teachings of the Quran. I refer you to the article referenced by Cheesebeast in the Lynch thread Dave is so excited about: Islamic terrorism is due to an islamic interpretation of an idea that hit the West first: Fascism.

The death of Islam is not necessary for the death of terrorism -- the death of fascist thought is.

Kill Islam, and the threat of Christian fascism still exists.

I suspect, but can never know, that Islam could have reached a fascist philosophy on its own, given a few centuries, but that it was hurtled 'forward,' if you will, by borrowing from Western thought.

However, it is mostly irrelevant as it is playing "the blame game."

I did not respond to the Jessica Lynch thread because I find the extent to which it was staged to be irrelevant also.

I wanted to comment about how I suddenly appreciate PtG's presence, because after a jaunt through parapundit's linked sites and reading some of the links in the Lynch thread, I find one comment of his very poignant: that we are here in a circle jerk, spouting our own opinions to each other.

I keenly feel the need to proselytize my point of view if it is to survive in a modern climate, and preaching to the choir is demonstrably ineffective.

At the same time, however, as I look at the monumental task of educating-- no, I'll be honest, indoctrinating people in the firm belief in the dignity of humanity and equality of opportunity, and exactly which actions improve the lot of humanity and which do not, I feel that not only am I not sufficient to the task, but that I would better serve the lot of humanity by simply continuing to be the functioning production unit I am. The fact that being a functioning production unit pays well and thus complements my pursuit of happiness has been taken on board, as well.

To keep this post on thread, I would like to say that the concept of "importing misogyny" is deserving of elaboration. Obviously feminist organizations are going to view it through their particular lens, but similar arguments can be made about importing other intolerances that took (and are taking!) this nation centuries to eradicate.

France's socialist dream has failed, and its pursuit has allowed fascism a new inroad to the
Functioning Core, as defined by my URL. If the people of France cannot demonstrate the strength of will to steady their course, I am afraid it will be necessary for the safety of the rest of the Core that their chart be plotted for them.

It is to avoid this horrendous outcome that the remaining Core is almost obligated to apply diplomatic and economic pressure on France to mend its ways.

Attention France!
I hate to inform you of this. but you are not a Super Power and haven't been since the 18th century! You are not happy? Deal with it! I sure wouldn't waste any of our valuable time with yu arrogant, pompous asses period!

If you don't have enough gut wrenching fear, try

http://www.pushhamburger.com/

It is the first "opposition" web site that I have found which attacks the Bush administration on grounds other than "he's a weenie." True, I haven't been looking very hard, but hey.

The one thing in particular that put chills down my spine:

http://www.pushhamburger.com/treason1.htm

France and Germany both missed the boat precisely because they have large muslim populations.

Those pieces of shit muslims, the ones that just can't live in peace, need to be cleared out, sent back it the shit stain they came from. A war in Iraq would have probably given enough justification to deal with those bastards...

Having been in France, its time that a little facism return otherwise their country is gone.

Five percent of population in France are practicing Christians according to:
http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/journal_vol8/0106_malik.asp

This equates to about 8% of baptized Christians.
Google search of "church attendance" + France and "practicing Christians" + France, gives a number of pages citing figures between 5 and 10 percent.

I Just read Original Mark's post, and am embarrassed to have posted next to that bigotry.

I believe Muslims are wrong in their religion and that Jesus Christ was not crazy, but speaking the truth when he said, "no one can come to the Father except through me"--which would naturally be insane or evil if he were not the Son of God. Nevertheless--(or actually because of my belief)--people should look on others with compassion, not arrogance, condescension or an evil of their own.

Instead of concentrating on how abhorent the roots of Islam really are to the average Westerner, I hope that we end up thinking about the future of civilization if we do not allow individual freedom to take root. That means, everywhere. Freedom of Religion, to be allowed to believe in one's inner self to determine how to order one's life, is fundamental. Christianity is based on Love of God, and Love of Neighbor. We are all human with human failings and triumphs.
The French are seeing the death (in my estimation) of a Socialist Vision, if you will. They are also very slothful, or...our equivalent of a societal couch-potato. I think they need to re-examine their collective soul. They are going to be forced to do that by a growing population of a very hate-filled people. I know, I know. Freedom of Religion. Islam is NOT a religion folks. It is NOT founded on the Word of God (as is Christianity), it is founded on a fellow (VERY human, with the failings tipping the scale) by the name of Muhammad.
I'd be scared, too... Just what kind of an example are we (I suppose I could narrow that to the French) collectively giving to these Middle-Eastern immigrants in search of a better life? Liars? Cheaters? Thiefs? Compassion?
I hope they have their BaghdadBobrepellers covering their eyes when they pull off the wool.

"Islam is a religion of peace". This is what our politically correct politicians keep telling us. But what is politically correct is not necessarily correct. The truth is that Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion of hate, of terror and of war."

Tbox, I think you miss the point of that site, It is there to expose the Koran for what it is.

"This site is created by ex-Muslims to help Muslims leave Islam
Islam is a lie and this site is the proof. "

There are no good teachings of the koran, ALI SINA, the sites creator exposes this.

But yes, it is a large site to go through.

Bubba! I'll bet you're 'glad' you ain't in the bovine biz this morning... If you don't mind, would you be in ALB or MAN ? I know it doesn't make much of a difference to you, but I'm in a state that shares a border with you... I hope you ain't feedin' them little porkers some of their own protein...

I wonder how many actually rea dthe French document? The factual statements are actually exactly correct.

Someone mentioned the roland-2 missiles. Like most US weapons these are widely sold and sales to third parties occur all the time. Indeed, the US, as the main seller of weopons around the world, has been the strongest opponent of conventional arms sales systems that would help track arms transfers to third parties (we already know the Rolands were transfered and not directly sold).

Look at this statement by someone who can't read:
Jean-David Levitte, Ambassador of France to the US, states that the charges "all rely on information from 'anonymous administration officials.'" Really?

Nothing anonymous about Lt. Greg Holmes, eh Frenchie?

Apparently "greg" doesn't realize that lieutenants in the Army are NOT members of the Bush administration.

This is the problem. It is obvious why the crtiques have been leaked (and I agree with many of them) but only anonomously. No US officials would be couagt dead on the recoird criticizing a country for conventinal arms turning up in a prohibited country as this happens with US arms all the time as well.

I have a very peculiar faith. I know God exists, much to my regret.

I believe in the Christian message, as it has been interpreted by the lens of the humanitarian enlightenment.

But I remain conscious of the fact that the Bible is not an infallible document, at times self-contradictory, and that it can be used to support a message as bloodthirsty as that in the Koran. Witness http://www.concentric.net/~Tycho4/Main.htm (Focus on the column labeled "The Far Right." I note for the record that I am mostly Republican.)

Contrariwise, the Koran can be interpreted to support a message as humanitarian as liberal Christianity, to whit, http://www.muslims.org/

Unfortunately, I will admit that Islam is centuries behind Christianity in censoring its "bad parts" from official doctrine.

I think Islam can be "saved," as a religion. I remain undecided as to whether it should be saved. On the one hand, it would facilitate the entry of a billion people into humanitarian society, on the other, the seeds of hate would always lie just underneath the surface, just as they do in Christianity.

I apologize to all the people I know will be offended by this post.

Dave;
Manitoba, and yes, this mad cow thing concerns me. Knee-jerk reations to these things can quickly spiral out of control. We can already see the media trying to blow it out of proportion.
One cow. Already the whole herd has been destroyed.
And no, my pigs are vegitarians, LOL
But as we saw in the UK, This can turn into a nightmare affecting pork as well.
My system is completely closed, you shower going in and going out. testing is a daily thing.

I guess we will see how things work out in the days to come.

Apparently "GOP" inferred incorrectly.

The point was France was implying a massive coordination of Bush officials anonymously planting false stories with newspapers, yet at least one of the stories that France cited as anonymous actually had a named source, Bush official or not.

Go split someone else's hairs.

Greg you claimed some second lieutenant was a Bush administration official. That was just dumb.

Dave etc,
you R right ! I stand corrected. Who would have thought that Harris&klebold commentary would be the going rate @ "Command Post".
sic transit gloria mundi

Hello everyone.
Still searching for weapons of mass destruction, guys?