Time we move one of those army bases from Germany to Poland -- strategically, it puts us between Germany and Russia, and diplomatically rewards Poland for being a faithful friend.

Besides, after what those people went through to help us bring down the Iron Curtian, it is the least we could do.

MD,

A hearty harrumph for that idea.

The Pope,

Yes... You are relevant... I ain't anti-Catholic / anti-religion, but seriously, this guy HAD NO GROUNDS for condemning this military action.

Allowing the status quo to continue WAS MURDER!

Yea, I just saw some special about the Pope a few days ago on PBS I think. It was pretty interesting, how he's Polish and he helped lift the Polish spirits after the fall of Communism.

Funny how he opposes the war, and the Polish (people who are very loyal to the Pope) go anyways. Shows a change in how things are working now.

Yea, I just saw some special about the Pope a few days ago on PBS I think. It was pretty interesting, how he's Polish and he helped lift the Polish spirits after the fall of Communism.

Funny how he opposes the war, and the Polish (people who are very loyal to the Pope) go anyways. Shows a change in how things are working now.

(Sorry for double post)

(Sorry for double post)

Anyone up on the Poles ? God bless their government, but I was reading that upwards of 80 % of the populace was anti-war (is this due to Catholicism ?). Most surprisingly, however, Pew Research had 50 % of Poles harboring a negative impression of America.

Perhaps just another unwilling populace dragged into the fight by a brown nosed leader (president / prime minister) trying to grease up to George 'who can I kill next' Bush. Most likely another country that really couldn't afford to pour Millions of dollars into someone elsesquest for World Domination.

According to my personal experience (have family and friends in Poland) the “it’s all about oil” line is as popular there as in the rest of Europe. Yes, the Polish government took a sensible line in this war. That does not mean that they or the population are actually pro-American. Europe is Europe, old or new.

i think congress should pass a bill changing all polish jokes to into french jokes..
it is obvious they are intellegent with the choice they made in this matter..
it is obvious the french leaders are nutcases

"Time we move one of those army bases from Germany to Poland..... diplomatically rewards Poland for being a faithful friend"

Kinda makes me wonder what the "reward" aspect is for Poland in allowing a foreign force to occupy bases in their land. These are real people with real national pride and they aren't going to go all weak-kneed and starry-eyed at the prospect of Americans inviting themselves onto their land. This is not a "reward". I mean, does the withdrawal of Soviet forces from the same nation a decade ago therefore represent some form of punishment?

I look around the world and don't see too many stable nations that would willingly accept such a terrorist-magnet on their territory. Even friendly-nations like Britain and, yes, Germany only tolerate American bases because they are bound to by World War II era deals.

Interesting point Snapper.

"Time we move one of those army bases from Germany to Poland "

That is your idea of a "reward?"
considering the vast majority of Germans want our bases out, it sounds like we would be "rewarding" those in Germany who like us least.

BTW, Poland is much more anti-American and Anti-Semitic than Germany.

Yes, intersting point Snapper, but not well thought out or very intelligent. For one thing, you obviously have not thought about the impact our presence has on Germany's economy. It's free money to them - let us use a little land and they get compensated quite well beyond the money that our troops spend locally. "...bound to by World War II era deals"? Not exactly. Besides weakening their own security, our complete withdrawl from forward bases in a country like Germany would be a huge blow to their economy. They may not like Americans but you suddenly cut their supply of American cash and they'd soon be singing a different tune.

Hmmmm ...

OK, how about moving NATO to Poland? It wouldn't just be American troops that would be present and still "rewards" Poland (both economically and prestige-wise). It has the added benefit of sticking it to Belgium by removing the same and thumbs our noses at the Russians and Germans at the same time. The French ... well, who cares about them. They'll get theirs when Iraq declares "bankruptcy" and the shredding machines get revved up.

From a total of 120,000 US troops regularly based in Europe, some 71,000 are stationed in Germany.
Given a German workforce of about 40 million, an American withdrawal would pinch, not hurt. The overall economic impact is hard to estimate, since some of the area used by the US forces would be extremely valuable (e.g. the RheinMain airbase). Remember: this is not the US where land is free :-), but one of the densest populated countries in Europe.

But this is not my point: Feelings all over Europe are pretty anti-Bush at the moment, it is only that some governments were smarter or more opportunistic, depending on your point of view, than others. Though I congratulate the coalition forces for a swift and brillant campaign and the Iraqi people for their regained freedom, I can't help questioning the style and the manners of the US administration in preparing and starting this war.

It destroyed most of the international goodwill the US enjoyed after 1989, not to say 9-11, and sadly leaves the new world order and international rule of law crumbled to dust. Bringing democracy to the Near East is a heroic challenge, if the US succeed here in their current role as occupying superpower, I will be the first to salute.
But life could be so much easier with Jacques, Vladimir, Gerhard and the Pope.

I'm polish, and the reason we contributed to the war effort was because of the genocide saddam was doing, as well as slaughtering other innocents besides the kurds.
Also, poland has been upgrading its millitary, new f18's are on the way.
An american base would be benificial for training, as well as future millitary ungrades.
Poland is in a very dangerous place, I'm sure you all remember history.
We get it from all sides, Germany, and the USSR -Russia .
Poland's independance is still relativly new, don't forget we were stuck behind the iron curtain post ww2. The butallity of the KGB continued well into the 80's, it's just the west never knew about it.

ygee: "But life could be so much easier with..."

Don't you think that's a little selfish?
You're happy with an "easy" state of inertia for your country and self, so let's not think about anybody else?
Remember that when it matters, adopting the "why bother?" approach is something you may be able to get away with on occasion, but many other times - and certainly in the longer run - this attitude can be very detrimental to yourself and others.

ygee: German economy is already "hurting" if you didn't notice. Add a pinch to a hurt and you get a major booboo.

With a population roughly half of Germany's, Poland stands to benefit economically more than Germany did. But also, to view potential policy through the prism of fashionable European anti-Americanism is, to be kind, myopic and parochial. Look at the country's history for God's sake. Centuries of being stuck between a rock and a hard place, with freedom and independence only into its second decade. Think there might be residual insecurities there which having American bases could allay?

The history of Europe is not promising for the Poles. Peace has broken out in Europe, and the EU is a promising start, but I have to wonder just how much of the cooperation we see is a direct result of US strength. If the US were to (say) have a strong military draw-down and enact an isolationist policy, how many people would want to be caught between Russia and Germany? Both countries are militarily powerful, both have invaded their neighbors. If Germany thinks it can control the EU, it will be willing to act through it, but what about Russia?

It would be an interesting experiment to see what would happen in Europe if America just went away...

I have family in Poland too - the feeling with them is that a U.S. or NATO presence in the country is good. Remember, they were under communism not that long ago and appreciate the protection that an American military force would provide.

I have to laugh at these comments on Poland and Germany. Let's get some facts: The most Antisemitic popluations in Europe are in Spain and Poland. Poles are muych more antiAmerican than GErmans are. Excuse the pun, but all polls show this.

This war aside, in the past ten years Germany has had more soldiers serving alongside US troops in missions around the world than any other country.
Germany already made a deal to greatly increase its forces in Bosnia and Kosovo. This was needed to free up other NATO forces for Iraq. Do some checking aobut how bases have been compensated for the past dozen years. US bases in Germany are a net financial loss to Germany.

Mellow: "You're happy with an "easy" state of inertia for your country and self, so let's not think about anybody else?"

Sorry, you missed my point (or I was fuzzy :-)). Bringing democracy to the Near East would be much easier with US, the EU, Russia and not to forget Turkey working smoothly together. Currently we've got a war won, no clues about what to do next in Iraq and the alliance against terrorism bellowing at each other. Oh, and a real positive image in the Arab world...not.

I was surprised to see the US government which did such an excellent job in the second gulf war diplomacy be so trigger-happy this time.

Invite Jacques for a good claret earlier or wait another month at the security council and things could have run a lot smoother.

Just my 5c.

JB: "German economy is already "hurting" if you didn't notice. Add a pinch to a hurt and you get a major booboo."

c.f. ArmyVet; by the way I would love to see the US forces stay, just not for economic reasons. If you decide to threaten, you have to be credible
;-)

"But also, to view potential policy through the prism of fashionable European anti-Americanism is, to be kind, myopic and parochial. "

Sorry, you're counting me on the wrong side. I tend to be very unpopular around here in old Europe, since I wasn't opposing this war. I just don't like the way Bush is handling international politics. As ArmyVet pointed out, German troops are based in Bosnia, Kosovo, the Gulf of Aden and Afghanistan right now. Not too anti-American, I guess, and, by the way, happy to have a friend at the Eastern border now.

"I'm polish, and the reason we contributed to the war effort was because of the genocide saddam was doing, as well as slaughtering other innocents besides the kurds."

I doubt you are Polish. I read the Polish press, and the main reason was counter Germany. Poland is also onwe of the few places in Europe where you can see the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" proudly displayed in bookstore windows.

"Also, poland has been upgrading its millitary, new f18's [sic]are on the way."

Thak you "Poland expert", they are F-16s, not F-18s, as everyone in Poland knows (it was the biggest story besides Iraq). The deal has the biggest offset component in hsitory and essentially involves the US taxpayer subsidizing almost the entire cost.

I am not sure but wouldnt Poland want to do everything it could to be on the good side of France and Germany? France and Germany are at the heart of the EU process and Poland is in the middle of accession negotiations. CFSP is a goal. Also, Poland is heavily reliant on Germany economically.

You got it john. this was just a buyout for the polish goverment which is the most unpoluar among it's people of any government in europe. We got a couple dozen polish troops, a "coaliton member" and poland's support only cost the US taxpayer $4 billion (yes, b).

I'm Polish, but I'm living in Sweden for the moment.

I just want to say that I'm really proud of my country now(And I allways been). Because WE, a country which is still building up its self after the fall of the iron curtain, sent troop's to Iraq. We helped the Iraqie people. And we our self's still need help in rebuilding our country. But something that get's me really angry is country's like Sweden, Germany or France(and many others). That don't help, they just sitt there and talk about peace(Now they say that they will help with money, but country's which took part in the war had to pay the prise of lifes). Sometimes you have to resolve a conflict by military means. I remember all the demonstrations in Sweden.They said that the Iraqie people don't wan't to be liberatet. I wonder what the people demonstrating a few weeks ago think now when they turn on the TV.

Long live the Pope, Long live Kwasniewski, Long live Bush, Long live Poland, Long Live USA and long live peace. And may our Brothers and Sisters who didn't come home fom the war rest in peace.

"Poles are much more antiAmerican than Germans are" - where did you (ArmyVet) get it??
Well I wonder why George Bush is the most popular foreign politician in Poland?
Listen up people- I'm Polish and I've been living in Poland for 26 years-our society is one of the most proAmerican in the world.
Almost every Pole has some relatives in USA (including me). It's mostly because of our difficult history. Besides - USA was always considered as the land of freedom and opportunity during bad times. There are few reasons more but the conclusion is one: Polish people support Americans and have many warm feelings for Your country.You can be pretty sure of that.

I support Tomek,s view. I am also Polish. The Poles are wel known in Europe as one of most pro-American nations. Our decisions to buy F-16 C 52+ and to send our speciail Unit GROM to fight in Iraq has made us many enemiies in the Europe . What has written ArmyWet is just a bullshit. Especially that "Poles are more anti-american than Germans". Have you ever been in Poland?
It is true that most of the nation was against the war. It was due to the Pope's point of view. But it never meant that Poles are anti american.
Poland was the only country I know where Por-American and Pro-War demonstartions were organized also. In Polish anti-war demonstration you could see 200 people comparing to the tens of thousends in Germany.
We realy want to have an alliance and friendship with America- the country of freedom so such opinions like ArmyVets and Oleos are unjust for us.
Also these things about antisemitism are a sterotype also. There are antisemits in Poland but not more than in other countries.

I'm a US soldier currently in Baghdad but stationed with the V Corps in Germany.
I spent a month in Poland on a training exercise before coming out here.
I think moving American based from Germany to Poland would be an excellent idea - Germany is generally anti-American, to the point that there are places in the country (clubs, etc.) that are 'no American'. I think that they deplore, overall, the fact that we are there. I also think you're right when you say losing the military there would hurt their country very little - their economy is strong.
At the same time, Poland is pushing hard to build their country after so long under an iron fist. Most of what I saw was poverty stricken - though the people are very friendly and content. I think bringing our military into the country would bring $$'s that the country could really use to move forward and make general improvements like roads, new hospitals, orphanages, etc. When thousands of soldiers, all with pay checks to spend, come into a new place the first thing they do is spend money. I also think that training side by side with the Polish military would be a good thing - giving Poland access to top-end training and American soldiers the chance to work side by side with our European counterparts.
I really enjoyed my stay in Poland and working alongside the Polish military - everyone was very friendly and there were friendship swaps of equipment, patches, etc. all the way around. I truely look forward to returning to train alongside them next year too!

Oh, by the way - as we rolled into Poland, the people were so receptive to the Americans being there that they lined the street and ran out of their houses to wave at the convoys going past. We all felt like we were heros on parade! They're definetly NOT anti American!!! Wonderful people :)

By the way - my experiences being there for work have made Poland one of my top vacation plans for the future too.