Backpedalling fast enough to create a sonic boom...

words fail.

Many French people have supported the US all along and it's a lock that France has been helping the US in unseen ways. They have lots of internal issues, including a nasty and sticky legacy of failed socialism (imagine an entire country run like the city of San Francisco). Chirac, a conservative, probably miscalculated, and a price will be paid for that, but he's definitely pro-american, and the french newsreaders (not necessarily the reporters in the field, but the anchors) seem genuinely pleased that the US is having military success.

Too little
Too Late
Too wordy.

"he's definitely pro-american"

That would explain his habit of pissing on us over the last two years.

Nothing is a simple and black and white as it seems, but this bad taste in our mouths from people who are supposed to be our allies will not just disapear...and that in itself is a story yet to unfold...

They jeered while our soldiers, Marines, and airmen died. I will not vote for a candidate that wants to repair the ties between France and the U.S.

Angus, on a personal level, your reply is totally understandable.

The French didn't jeer ar american soldiers. There were some demonstrators in Paris saying things like demonstrators in San Francisco, LA, NY, etc... certainly naive. But I live here, and I can tell you, most French people didn't jeer.

I'm sorry, but I'm a simplisme American. Perhaps kyoto would care to tell me what this article means, since kyoto is of the view that Americans simply cannot understand (or the translation program cannot grasp) the nuances and/or depth of European sophistication in their writings.

Not!

Sorry, General, Chiraq is not pro-American.

"The French didn't jeer ar american soldiers. There were some demonstrators in Paris saying things like demonstrators in San Francisco, LA, NY, etc... certainly naive. But I live here, and I can tell you, most French people didn't jeer."

This certainly is true. French media seem to have approached this 'more in sorrow than in anger'.

The general attitude could be summed up as: "Look at them. The poor fools. We told them it was not a good idea. I hope not too many of them get killed. Now maybe they will listen better to what we have to say..."

Shaulie

OMFG!

Chirac is PRO US? Dang, think how bad the LEFTIES in that country must hate us!

Isn't this a classic example of "with friends like this..."

The current feeling in America running against the French is not one that has suddenly popped up. Americans have for a long time now harbored resentments against the French, this episode, where Chirac has so publicly and grossly overplayed his hand, has turned that latent resentment into fullblown anger.

American politicians need tread very lightly for the forseeable future when it comes to being pro-France.

Is there anything the average American hates more than Arrogance from someone who has ZERO credibility historically, has never done anything to be proud of for as long as anyone alive can remember, and who brings no skills to the game.

France is a trash-talking slow, short, white guy with no jumpshot. They are the laughingstock of the free world right now.

Have you heard the US leadership bashing France by name lately? ; )

It's a mistake to treat the french, or any nation,
as if it were a monolithic whole. The reality is that there are many people in france who have much in common, in the way in which they think, with those reading this forum. Even if it is a low percentage, say ten percent, that is still millions of people.

"Group thinking," assigning attributes to people based on nationality or whatever, and not seeking out a common alliance with those who share your values, is a victory for your enemies.

Mark, you are right, but it will be hard to avoid, at least for a little while...

We are suckers if we let them come around now, after what they've cost us and the Iraqi people in lives and suffering. It's time for a permanent "Non" to France. We've let them off the hook too many times already - that's what allows them to keep doing this over and over again. Enough of this Vichy crap.

Mark Amerman said:

""Group thinking," assigning attributes to people based on nationality or whatever, and not seeking out a common alliance with those who share your values, is a victory for your enemies."

While Mark is definitely correct in general, we should not overlook certain aspects of the French elite. That is, their is a remarkable conformity of thought and experience in the French elite that most Americans are totaly unaware of. The Ecole National is a very interesting type of university, and most of the French elite are graduates.

Shaulie

Let's face it. The French picked the loosing team, again. As always, after the fact doesn't work to try and say it Twernt so.

What a shitty translation... Why not give us a direct link to the French version, so that those of us who can still remember bits and pieces (or even more) from high school can actually stand to read it?

The percentage is much higher... probably about 60% of the French people openly support the United States now that the war has started. As I've mentioned, France has lots of internal issues that americans aren't aware of, and yes (forgive me for repeating it, but it's true), Chirac is pro-US. Has there been a screw up in French foreign policy? Most probably, and many of us find that quite annoying, but France is a genuine ally of the US and the UK.

No, It's NOT a mistake.

We view the French through their leadership. That's the only way we can. There will always be a full spectrum of people from the rabid left to the rabid right.

But those AREN'T the people in power. When people in America say we hate the french, we are referring to their leadership, not to the French people are a whole. We may not like the stereotypical Frenchman, but hey, we don't like the stereotypical New Yorker or Californian.. that stuff is meaningless.

We don't like the French for what their leadership, Chirac and De Villepin have said and done publicly.

The French just had an election, as I recall, a very embarrassing one for them, where they canned the old fullblown socialist candidate and ended up with an ultra nationalist LePen and Chirac. People who hated Chirac voted for him anyway just so that LePen (the Equivalent of a Pat Buchanan in America, perhaps) wouldn't win.

We hold them accountable for that election. Apparently LePen won because so many people split the vote so many ways the socialists couldn't get a strong enough plurality to put a party line candidate in there. LePen had some serious support, altough it didn't translate into majority support in the main election.

If the French want Americans to view them favorably, they need to elect someone whose main goal isn't to weaken the US and act in an anti-American way consistently. I think most French want France to become a great power again and act as a counterbalance to the US. Well, if that's the case, then the anti-France bias in America will continue, and rightly so.

Hey, MA, why don't you go screw yourself. I translated the first two paragraphs, the rest is Babel Fish, so do it yourself you loser.

Chirac, a conservative, probably miscalculated, and a price will be paid for that, but he's definitely pro-american

Chirac is only "pro-American" insofar as it it suits his purposes. That's not a unique approach to foreign policy, but let there be no illusions that Chirac is somehow a trusted ally.

I'm sorry, but "allies" don't "miscalculate" to the degree we saw from France.

The French accuse the US of being brash and arrogant. Well if a calm reasoned tone is what Chirac was attempting, he blew it with the sonic boom he leveled by his arrogance and indignation.
It is the French that are oblivious. They insult you and then pretend they don't understand your upset. Gimme a break. Same old talking out of both sides of their mouth. Talk about shades of French history with the germans during the WWII.
They moon walk better than Michael Jackson

France is not an Ally of the US. The obstructionists should be booted out of NATO.

It is no good saying a (small) number of French people support us and that is why we should cut the government some slack. As far as any country is concerned, the government *is* the other country you're dealing with. Who else do you negociate with? Who do you make trade agreements with?

America *is* her government and France *is* hers, only because that is what deals with global affairs. And, sadly, France has made a serious mistake. On the bright side, in Iraq we are now killing fanatics from other parts of the ME, some of whom would otherwise have been raising hell in France.

MITYDK, I generally agree with you. France is going through a period of (hopefully positive) transition.

Readers should also be aware that there is a substantial arab population in France, especially in the south, which is immensely controversial here, and complicates things.

Bluntly put, if all of France was demographically like the north, this probably wouldn't have happened.

Don't give me this "misunderstood Frenchmen" crap. We all saw the polls. A third of the country actively wants Iraq to win? Only a tiny fraction (was it under 10%?) actively want the US to win? 90% approve of Chirac's handling of this? These are landslide numbers.

You couldn't have gotten better numbers in Tikrit.

It's clear that Chirac is actively anti-American, and has been for years. The inescapable conclusion from the polls is that the French public really and truly is in full agreement with that.

Fine. We got the message, loud and clear.

And oh, by the way, we have a new policy that ties trade issues to foreign policy issues. But you thought we were kidding, again, didn't you?

DSmith, your numbers are wrong. Although there is some variation (as in any poll), a majority of the French consistantly support US victory in Iraq, as does the French government in its official statements (which predate the beginning of hostilities).

As an aside, I'd estimate that has many as 15% of the US population, and possibly more, would be delighted with US military failure in Iraq. Despicable, but true.

"Readers should also be aware that there is a substantial arab population in France, especially in the south, which is immensely controversial here, and complicates things."

No fooling. Also in Belgium, Rotterdam, and a large part of 'old Europe'. You need to decide whether you want to live under Sharia and do it fast. Appeasing militant Muslims and tolerating anti-Semitism is not going to help you over here, either.

General Patton - you've got the wrong handle. You should change it to Petain or Laval!

We agree on that, Gail.

"Readers should also be aware that there is a substantial arab population in France"

A) Do you REALLY believe that Americans do not know this? If so, you are letting your naive anti-American bigotry inform your thinking.

B) Do you REALLY believe that it constitutes a valid excuse for the backstabbing France dished out? If so, we really have nothing to talk about.

Cockney Rebel: Hey, if it had been up to me, I'd have supported the US in the security council.

France is like the dog who finally caught the car. What the hell is Chirac going to do with Europe if he manages to dominate the EU?

Suck it dry.

General,

I, too, live in France - in Paris. Trust me, the French jeered. In fact, they are still jeering. As for Chirac, he is not pro-american. He is just not quite as anti-american as all the rest.

Spawn Your Liberators, I'm not sure you understand who you're talking to. Sorry, that's my fault.

Anyway, I 100% support the US military action in Iraq. Is that naive anti-american bigotry?

And yes, I'm reasonably sure that a majority of americans aren't aware of France's substantial arab population.

Ronnie, I know that thousands of naive students who've never heard the words "plastic shredder" associated with Saddam, Uday and Qusay were jeering, just as they jeered in San Francisco, Chicago, and New York.

"I'm reasonably sure that a majority of americans aren't aware of France's substantial arab population"

I am reasonably sure that you are incorrect in this. I can only offer as evidence my observations from actually living here. Regardless, the statement is condescending, and almost certainly counterproductive, if your aim is to win friends for France. The European stereotype of Americans as insular, masturbatory, hamburger-eating, nincompoops seems to form the basis for much of the "analysis" from your side of the pond. Be careful of believing it.

"General Patton", I stand (partly) corrected. It appears that this statement I made: "Only a tiny fraction (was it under 10%?) actively want the US to win?" is incorrect. I think I must have gotten it confused with a Russian poll, or the poll that asked whether we were really going in for WMD, both of which had numbers about in there.

However, it appears that these two statements:" A third of the country actively wants Iraq to win?" and "90% approve of Chirac's handling of this?" are in fact correct.

So, thanks for the correction on the one. But I'll take a tiny jab back and say that your claim that my numbers are incorrect is not correct. I only missed one out of three. :)

Links:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L20519973.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-631671,00.html

Feste, trust me, lots of influential French people are those very questions right now (and I'm not talking about 20 year old students partying in the streets of Paris).

Spawn Your Liberators, with all due respect, please be careful of believing the filtered US media's take on European opinion. People like simple answers and characterizations that usually don't hold up under scrutiny.

DSmith, there are lies, damn lies, and polls. I'm referring to the polls taken by Le Monde several days ago. I found that the questions were totally slanted to the anti-war side, but even so, over 50% of the respondents supported US victory, and roughly 15% refused to respond at all.

General Patton, I don't know where you live in France, but I think you are definitely looking through rose colored glasses. And we are all aware that there is an Arab population in France. They are living anywhere they can outside of Iraq. We have large groups of them here in Detroit and LA most especially.

"... the surest way with this intention, just like our national interest orders it to us, with us French, it is to join again as quickly as possible with the fundamental alliance which binds us with those to which the values morals and humanistic are closest as of ours ..."

I think the French people and their government officials have made it abundantly clear to whom their, "values morals and humanistic are closest". It is certainly not to the US or UK or Australia. The behavior of the French over the past many months will not soon be forgotten by the Americans and our true allies.

Man-O-Man, I'm better acquainted with the demographics of LA, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, and New York than you may realize.

As for the rose coloured glasses, you wear your glasses, and I'll wear mine ; )

If your ulitmate position is to bash and isolate France, whatever the facts, it's true, you and I will have to admit to a disagreement, but I do understand why you feel that way.

Wow, even the French apologist posters are turning pro American now. "France was for you all along", I love it. It's definitely French. Too bad it isn't going to work though. Remember, we are fat stupid drunken American cowboys. We are immune to your fine subtleties. Sorry, it looks like it will take no less than a permanent toll painting display in half of the Louvre Museum to convince us.

General Patton in France:

I agree with the other Americans here that most Americans are aware of the substantial Arab population in France. In my own posts here I refer to "muslim countries such as france and syria" now and again.

The problem I (and other Americans) have with France is not that they disagreed, but that they attempted to build a global coalition of disagreement, speak on behalf of all European countries to the frusteration of those European countries that supported us, disrupt attempts of NATO to defend a possible attack on Turkey and organize a situation in the security council optimized not only to defeat a US-UK-Spanish proposal but embarass the US at the same time.

And beyond all of that, this isn't the first time France has done this. In the first Gulf War, the French were difficult to get onboard. The French are suspected of having secret contact and support of Iraq, the French want to organize a Europe that is a polar opposite to the US, just like everything else they do.

The television system the French use is called SECAM, (compared to NTSC) which is jokingly refered to as "System Essentially Contrary to the American Method". At all levels, Engineering, Political, Military, and Culturally the French appear to be attempting to disrupt American activities, simply because they can. It's fine for trivial stuff, but this is a case that the US saw a clear danger in the future, saw that the current system for dealing with Saddam and the Ba'athists wasn't working and moved to change it.

It would have been ok for our allies to express their negative opinions and vote against it, but France went far beyond that.

The US needs to patch up relations with all of our friends who had one time objections - Germany, Turkey, Canada, etc. But France is in a different position. The US needs to work to diplomatically isolate France within the EU and the world and shift power within the EU away from France.

France is going to continue to be a problem in the future. It's difficult to want to think of them as allies and friends now.

Spin, I generally agree with you (the SECAM system is particularly annoying and superfluous, as are the phone jacks).

However,

Nobody can predict the future and,

Posters to this forum don't represent a scientifically accurate cross-section of americans. I maintain my position that most americans aren't aware of the substantial arab population here, of the controversies it creates, and of its effects on internal French politics and policy.

General Patton, Is there a particular reason that you never capitalize the name "American"? It can't be because your shift key doesn't work. After all, you have capitalized France, Paris and Arab, but in this tread, you consistantly have not capitalized "American".

I guess old habits die hard mon general huh?

General Patton, true enough. The poll questions were slanted, and in fact the numbers I referred to were probably taken at the "peak" of anti-American feeling. But the numbers were overwhelming. So, even allowing for question slant and swings in public mood, I think the inference is clear.

In any case, that's kinda beside the point now. The damage has been done. France's tone now seems to be that if America will just admit their mistake, allow the French a little I-told-you-so, and then come humbly back and ask French forgiveness, then they might make up with us. Maybe. Of course they will still veto any UN resolution that violates French "principles".

Not gonna cut it. America feels, rightly or wrongly, that they have been betrayed and it is the French who need to do the apologizing, thick and fast. And also not obstruct us in the UN. That doesn't mean kow-tow, but it does mean negotiate in good faith. I don't think that's gonna happen. So, France will be made to suffer, so far as we are able.

Eventually, and it may be quite a long "eventuallY", this will all be water over the dam. But I doubt very much the US will ever really trust France again, or even Canada for that matter. For sure if Germany, or Russia, were to invade France tomorrow America would put their hands in their pockets.

If there's one lesson the US is drawing out of all this is that we need to be stronger, not weaker, and that we have to look out for our own good. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Look for a considerable increase in US military spending, as it is becoming clear that America can't be secure any other way. Certainly these much-vaunted "international organizations" won't lift a finger to protect America. Or anybody else, for that matter. Witness the Congo, as just the latest outrage. Or North Korea.

I'm more-or-less a centrist liberal. Not a rabid right-winger by any means. And the above attitudes are what the international community have driven me to. I certainly don't "speak for America", but I'm not alone.

'Scuse me, but on the knowing that France has a large population of Arabic folks--I know CNN mentioned it a lot, before the deadline was up. Not sure about anyone else.

On the media's take on European opinion-- Am I the only one getting the feeling that "World opinion" on most stations equals "let's ask this protestor holding the sign that says 'Bush is Hitler' and wearing a shirt that says 'War is Murder'"?

DSmith, simply put, I agree with you, it's a mess. I should emphasize, if it had been up to me, I wouldn't have blocked military enforcement of the UN resolution.

Ankchank, sorry about the lack of capitalization. I type a lot in French, too, and in French, one doesn't capitalize an adjective like "americain", "francais", etc. But they're capitalized in English.

I'll say it again:

Lots of French people are pro-American.

I think the last straw in my shop was when Chirac told the European countries that voiced support that they'd missed a great chance to shut their traps. Too much arrogance.

General Patton:

Believe it or not, Americans are generally fairly well traveled and the one country outside Canada and Mexico that is a popular destination is, for reasons beyond me, France. The substantial arab population is obvious once you step off the plane.

I spent much of my time last year dating a Catalan girl and lived in Barcelona for some time, even in Barcelona there was a significant arab population and this seems to hold true as you drive between Barcelona and Italy throughout France. When I complained to my girlfriend of the time that the European weren't helping us she reminded me, once again, of the significant arab population in France, told me stories of the dangers of sleeping at those rest areas on the highways in France because of the threat of being carjacked by arabian immigrants an the like.

This is not as ancedotal as it seems. Back at home in the US (wow, no smoking in supermarkets..) I started talking to my other American friends. Many of them lived in Europe at one time or another, or have to travel there on business. Until I started talking about it, I presumed I was fairly unusual for having spent even that much time in Europe. After having talked to others I found that nearly all of my friends spent at least some time in Europe, and usually France was the country they spent time in. I think you're underestimating American exposure to France.

What I find amusing is the number of inside jokes that other Europeans have about the French. I get quoted statistics about how the French buy the fewest cleaning products per capita of any European nation, the classlessness of the French, and the French attempts to dominate European politics. France, it seems, is not just an American problem but a European problem as well.

I'm sure there are some pro American people in France. I do disagree with Chirac is pro American though. I think Chirac being center right, is "as pro American as you will ever get" would be more accurate.

Nah, Franco American relations have been damaged. These latest rallys in Europe are very similar to those they had about Regan in the 80s. Therefore, not much of a change in attitudes. But on the American side, there has been a fundamental real change to the attitudes of France (which all too eagerly volunteered to be the epicenter). Media accuracy, perception versus reality and polls aside, the French are going to have to deal with this change in America. Fortunately for France, Americans don't harbor a grudge for long, but in the short and intermediate term there is tough times ahead for French diplomats.

General Patton

Methinks you protest too much.

We know there is a minority of French who would have supported the US position at the UN. But the HUGE majority backed Chirac.

Polls slow that even after the 2 nations that saved France's butt in two World Wars went into Iraq to fight, only a very slight majority of France wanted the Coalition troops to win. A significant slice wanted Saddam to win (the very thought of it !!!) and 30 to 40% would not declare either way.

France has behaved DESPICABLY throughout this crisis, and before with its arms deals and its oil deals. Whether or not you like it, France is perceived as having sided with Saddam.

It has fractured NATO, which gave it (FREE) protection for 50 years, it has shaken the European Community to the core, and it has caused the trashing of the UN.

France should be ostracised for its immoral behaviour, its population needs to learn the realities of world politics. No more excuses. These changes must come from within France, but we doubt if there is enough moral fibre left in France to make the change.

This will stain a whole generation of Frenchmen, unless France starts to make amends quickly and fully. But so far we have had the French PM saying last week that the Coalition made a moral, political and strategic mistake, and now we have Chirac trying to organise more obstruction at the UN.

So, General Patton - please don't preach to us. Preach to people in France, before it is too late.

I don't think General Patton was preaching to us, just trying to tell a bit of the other side of the story. And in a fair and calm manner. I think that's laudable.

But I also agree with this: "Preach to people in France, before it is too late."

Unfortunately, I think it's already too late. The damage has been done. In the past, people who said "US out of the UN" were considered very much fringe wackos. Not anymore. I'm hearing this from normal, everyday Americans. It can happen, and if this continues to be a huge tug of war, I think there is a reasonable possibility that it WILL happen.

Bush is almost certain to be reelected. The world has another 5 years of President Bush to deal with. That's a long time to make things happen in. And he's enough of a "man of priniciple" (whether you agree with him or not) to make things happen.

It really would have been a whole lot better if the world hadn't chosen this particular moment to let all their local politics and anti-American bile to spill out.

Now it's done, and we'll have to see how it all works out. I know I am going to be urging my gov't to reward those who stood with us, punish those who stood against us, and stand firm on an active role in the ME.

If GEN Patton were to try and preach to the masses in France he'd get beaten or stabbed just like an anti-war Jew. Unlike Saddam, when France mined its bridges to America they had them detonated.
France's leaders over the past 50 decades have made the decision to try and be a counter to American dominance. With the USSR falling they have been trying ever since 1989 to become that counter. Chirac's mistake was to use GWII as the event to launch his new Franco-empire. He's over-reached and he knows it. But he's also managed to unleash such a groundswell of pure dislike for America that he can't back away from the cliff to which he ran; if he backs away his political career is over, if he jumps he ends France's chance to dominate the EU.
Brinksmanship only works when you have two parties playing the game. Chirac, and by extension France, played a game of brinksmanship where the only one with something to lose was France. It was a game he lost.
All this being said America will repair the Franco-American relationship. America will use its influence in the new Iraqi regieme to make sure SOME of France's contracts in Iraq are honored or repaid. Maybe for cents on the dollar, but it's better than they deserve.

Chirac is probably the most pro-American French leader since, oh, Louis XVI. He went to school here, almost married an American (their families disapproved), and until the recent unpleasantness articulated a degree of admiration for America not usually seen in Western European elites (at least openly).

And there have been "rightist" members of the French Parliament who have shown support for the US before. This is merely the latest.

We need France. France needs us. That is reality. And while I am angered by their stance, and many (like my parents) feel betrayed by them, we are stuck together. It will take time, but the anger will pass.

Anthony

You say "The anger will pass" - and mention that your parents feel betrayed.

You are being too hopeful. Chirac - and the bulk of the French - have to PUBLICLY change their tune, fast, if they want to retrieve any semblance of good feeling towards France.

Personally, I feel that France has betrayed my father who fought in France in WW1, and has betrayed my generation, many of whom served in British forces as part of NATO, helping in the deterrence defence behind which France was shielded.

Above all, France has betrayed itself.

I shan't forgive and forget in a hurry, and neither will anyone I know.

Chirac CONTINUES to preach at the Coalition, digging himself and the French even deeper into the mire.

Hey Patton, don't feel like you have to defend your positions. As pissed as I am, I don't mean to make a blanket statement which colours all of France with the same brush. Judging from you, there are plenty of French that are reasonable people. I am sure things will go better, eventually. It will just take alot of time. Once the EU gets stronger (I think it will get more pro-US as the east gets in) I think France will lose their animosity towards us. Anyway, I don't want to turn the comments into bash Patton time.

This has been an excellent discussion, you guys. As for my getting beaten for "preaching" in France, it would depend a lot on the particular café I was in at the time, and how I presented myself.

After the correct preliminaries, one can safely launch into a choice story about a certain relative of Saddam cruising for "dates" in Al Mansour...

"please be careful of believing the filtered US media's take on European opinion"

There is that condescending tone again. That assumption underlying your comment is that as an American, I am an untraveled, over-patriotic ignoramus, depending on Fox News for my entire view of the world. Well, I have lived abroad for some time, and if you want to get a true view of America abroad, I would recommend that you knock down a few pints of bitters with the lads in the UK, or down a few "Crownies" a couple of Australians. Anti-Americanism is seldom far from the surface. I even read a little Parisian Pidgin. I read in La Presse last week, Print edition BTW, since I was in Montreal, how "Tout le monde sont les anti-Americains".

You comment just proves my point, that most Europeans are incredibly bigoted against Americans, believe us to be ill informed etc...

As to your belief that your Muslim population somehow excuses the French backstabbing, well it is just plain pathetic.

"There are no people in world who are so slow to develop hostile feelings against a foreign country as the Americans and there are no people who once estranged, are more difficult to win back." - Winston Churchill

I'm afraid Chirac and the people of France are about to learn the truth behind Sir Winston's words.

Forget about patching up this mess. I no more believe that France desires a rapprochement than I believe their stance is based on principle. French national identity is based on their view of France as a world power, a view that cannot be sustained on her own merits but only by attempting to be the counterweight to American power, just as native Americans were said to measure the courage of a tribe by the strength of its enemies. If France regretted the increasing schism with America, she would not have already demanded "only the U.N." to administer postwar Iraq. It was a statement designed to antagonize the U.S. and it will certainly solidify American opinion against a strong U.N role, even among Blair-philes like me who would like to see him rewarded for his courageous support. Also, many of the anti-France crowd in America welcome the honesty of this open schism. We enjoy having a clearly identified foe. In fact, my observation is that a certain amount of war support in the U.S. is due to France's position, as we perceive it. Rapprochement may be the correct, even the most intelligent path to take "for the sake of the world", but this split is very real and has been in the making for decades.

Holy smokes, thank MS for spellcheck. Who would have thought reapproachment was spelled rapprochement!

>Holy smokes, thank MS for spellcheck. Who would have thought reapproachment was spelled rapprochement!

Hey, that's a French word!

Anyway, I am not entirely sure the reason for the French position. Part of it is that France seeks a middle position between the US and well, everyone else. Part of it is that France wants to encourage multilateralism in order to strengthen its own hand and also to protect itself from conflicts in Europe.
I do not subscribe to "France did it for oil contracts" line we often hear.
But as happy as I am about the liberation of Iraq, I feel a certain sadness that now there will be a rift between the US and France, one that may not be fixed for many years. France after all was the birthplace of the Enlightenment, whose ideals because the mother of the American Revolution. They are our oldest ally, and despite it all, we often found ourselves on the same side of the great issues.

And I admit, I love France. I love the country, the people, and the life.

Which is why for me this has hit most hard. But France was wrong. By their actions, they made war more likely, and a peaceful removal of Hussein less likely.

Right, Anthony. Between no-war (let Saddam rule & torture & ?have sanctions?) and war was the third way, Saddam runs away. France's support for Saddam made this (unlikely) choice a virtual impossible one.

If France's support for Saddam was NOT about oil, and money, then they shouldn't object much if they don't get any reconstruction contracts.