Problem is, I'm pretty sure this is not how you store your nerve gas. Chemical weapons are stored in componant form until they are about to be used. Stranger things have happened though.

Not a good way to store anything hazmat....gives me the willies with ghosts of Love Canal just looking at it...

"During the raid, two American soldiers of the 101st Division became sick after accidentally inhaling a riot control gas, CN, that was also in a barrel."

CN is cyanide. We use cyanide to control riots? Maybe CN is something else too - I hope so.

I store all of my deadly, expensive, top-secret chemical agents in rusty drums in muddy trenches. Don't you?

Hey, the heroic American forces were merely trying to save the world's insects from the cowardly Iraqi bugspray. That's all.

Not buyin' it, are you? Oh well.

Bush's Chief WMD Investigator

Who said Sarin was expensive? Neither are Anthrax and Mustard Gas? These are cheap weapons to produce and they are deadly, thus their allure to the two-bit crackpot crowd.

I wonder how many of the "skeptical" crowd are college students who have had their opinions force fed to them from years of propaganda from the leftists in academia? I'd wager a good percentage past 75.

hmmm... don't feed the troll. Agenda.

As much as I'm looking forward to the weapons programs being uncovered and shown to the world, I have to admit that it is very unlikely that expensive, top-secret WMD's would be stored like this.

E"DITORIAL COMMENT: Is this how you store your pesticides?"

yes you genious.
Pesticides are often stored underground and covered in hot desert environements.

Get a grip.

CNN and MSNBC had video. CNN's had English writing on the barrels. MSNBC showed French.

"During the raid, two American soldiers of the 101st Division became sick "

Wrong, the US general in charge has said on the record they were suffering heat stroke.

I hate links to the NY Times.

Like Rumsfeld says repeatedly, inital reports are always filled with mistakes, or are just wrong. Interesting to watch the reports piling up, but I am not going to crow until the in-depth chemical analysis is in.

Ditto that. NY Times registration is evil.

And the CO of Landstuhl Military Hospital went on the record that PFC Lynch hadn't been shot or stabbed. Except that she had been shot, twice.

looking at the photo, this looks almost exactly like we used to store DDT and other nasty stuff at my uncle's farm. saddam is a bad guy, but this doesn't look like "evidence" to me.

Could someone mirror this photo? I'm not feeding their media machine.

maybe it's in the military's interest to downplay. The Iraqi regime has insisted they don't have WMD. Once that is proven a lie to the world they have no incentive to continue with the charade. They would then be more likely to use WMD

A lot of folks have been saying: 24 hours.

I still think there is a chance that discovered WMD will be kept quiet until we've got a better grip on Baghdad, and maybe even all the way up to Tikrit. Once found out for sure, Saddam has little reason not to use them.

It's possible that the only reason that it hasn't happened yet is because command and control has been damaged so badly.

Until then, this is all spin.

generic NYT user/pass: eatmeNYT/eatmeNYT

You're welcome.

MSNBC : Analysit says it's curious that there are flyies around the barrells. And that if these were chemical agents, the files would be dead.

"Produit d'Urgence" French markings on barrells, probably surrender farting agent.

"Chemical tests for nerve agents in the warehouse came back positive for so-called G-Series nerve agents, which include sarin and Tabun, both of which Iraq has been known to possess"

"In addition to the soldiers sent for decontamination, a Knight Ridder reporter, a CNN cameraman and two Iraqi prisoners of war also were hosed down with water and bleach."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/gen/apr03/131713.asp

The story is still developing. This report says nothing about the Generals comments, but I can't recall the last time I treated someone for Heat Stroke or Exposure by giving them a decontamination shower or pouring bleach on them.

I'm thinking some of these are 'leftovers' or forgotten small amounts in the big "Lets get everything outta here" clean-up. Also, beuracracies like SH's always have ton's of people selling stuff on the side.
"I can get you a good deal on some strong stuff. Will it kill mosquitoes? Oh yes, no problem. Just point it away from your face."

> The story is still developing. This report says nothing about the Generals comments, but I can't recall the last time I treated someone for Heat Stroke or Exposure by giving them a decontamination shower or pouring bleach on them.

The General was interviewd on CNN like 30 minutes ago, so he has the freshest information I think. Also, he's there.

mmmmmmmMM. Bleach enema. I hope someone gives Saddaam a bleach enema...better yet, a sarin/mustard enema. I love wine ememas.

Is this how you store pesticide? Maybe not, but then, I live in a very industrialized country, not the freakin' desert. Your expecting bright shiney green plastic drums with "Warning, Pesticide!" on the side?
I'm sure they usually paste the Material Saftey Sheets, OSHA handling instructions, and the number for poison control on the side as well, they just forgot.

Analyze your news. All we know for certain is that it's a barrel with crud in it. If that alone is determined to be a crime, we need to invade New Jersey.

BTW, thanks for the NYT, wasn't thinking. and I meant to say marketing machine.

"In addition to the soldiers sent for decontamination, a Knight Ridder reporter, a CNN cameraman and two Iraqi prisoners of war also were hosed down with water and bleach."

BLEACH? They haven't verified what they "may" have been contaminated with, and they hose them down with BLEACH? Please tell me this is just another reporter that doesn't have his facts straight.

This is still the story to watch. "20 medium-range rockets with warheads containing sarin and mustard gases". With RealOne audio link to NPR report.

My guess is we are looking at another pesticide find. The suprise would be not finding pesticides in an agricultural hot river climate. In a third world country I would also be suprised to find they were stored in according to US environemental standards. These has become the equivelent of the "white van" sightings during the beltway sniper story. The poor reporters not in the middle of the fighting are desperate to file a story. The reading public is desperate to see chemical weapons.

There is a lot of group ignorance.
Look at the "bleach story" sighted. Pardon me but applying bleach to a suspected chemical weapon victim would be the worst thing.
Look at the suspicious storage, as someone pointed out it is actually probably normal.
Look at the story of soldier affected. Seems the US general that is at the scene said the men were suffering from heat affects.
The smoking guns are turning out to be a "jumping of the gun."

this whole story broke out yesterday.

Yor are a bit behind it seems

Calm down, Casey. Diluted bleach isn't any big deal.

As a kid, I used to get stuck in a bathtub of water with some bleach after every Boy Scout camping trip. Worked great for killing chiggers and ticks.

I'm not sure what purpose it's serving here, but it probably isn't harmful.

More important than "is this how you store them" is..."is this how you comport yourselves around what you think are WMD's?" The video I saw showed soldiers and journos wandering around the site without a gas mask or chemical suit in sight.

American soldiers of the 101st Division became sick after accidentally inhaling a riot control gas, CN, that was also in a barrel.

CN is tear gas, Laura. AKA mace.
Its full name is Chloracetophenon. (There is also CS gas, Ortochlorobenzalmalonotrile. Both are commonly referred to as "tear gas".)

What strikes me as curious is that these barrels were (apparently) topped off with riot control gas. I doubt anyone stores their pesticides that way, but it strikes me as a precaution one might well take with WMD. A non-lethal warning, in effect.

---"looking at the photo, this looks almost exactly like we used to store DDT and other nasty stuff at my uncle's farm. saddam is a bad guy, but this doesn't look like "evidence" to me."---

DDT? Environmentalists should be even more pissed than if it were found to be nerve gas. Labor unions, worker saftey groups, the Greens, feminists should be outraged that hazardous chemicals are stored this way. Did anyone see any child proof lids on those barrels? No. Can we think about the children for once.

"What strikes me as curious is that these barrels were (apparently) topped off with riot control gas."

More false reporting. Riot control gas in a different place. In fact it was of a type that not only US municpalities use, but in many states individuals can easily buy.

If I recall my organic chemistry correctly, G series nerve agents are organo-phosphates similar to pesticides (in fact that is how they were developed in Germany). The interesting thing here is that they are testing positive for Lewisite. Lewisite is phosgene-oxalate. This is phosgene (a totally legal precursor chemical) reacted in such a way as to be useless for any purpose other than as a WMD.

Since they are indicating a positive test for Lewisite, I assume they are not getting a false positive for phosgene. Phosgene is a chemical weapon on it's own, so they wouldn't be saying Lewisite unless the test differentiates between them. If phosgene tested the same as Lewisite, they'd just say they found Phosgene (again, a chemical weapon with a dual use).

This looks like a pretty sure thing.

As to the means of storage, the idea here was to hide this stuff. They probably buried some of it a year ago to keep it from the inspectors, and dug it out for use on our troops.

Check your pesticide labels. The antidote is frequently atropine.
From which it follows that maybe only a modest reduction in filler separates pesticide from field-expedient nerve agent.

Bleach is correct. It degrades nerve agents, and is part of the recommended decontamination procedure (at the appropriate concentration, of course).

-- DDT? Environmentalists should be even more pissed than if it were found to be nerve gas. Labor unions, worker saftey groups, the Greens, feminists should be outraged.... No. Can we think about the children for once. --

The delivery of anti-malarial drugs to Iraq has been blocked for years. Thinking of the children?

My own US Army experience is five years old, but there was a specific warning agianst using bleach if you suspected nerve exposure. Bleach greatly enhances the effectiveness of nerve agents and greatly increase its ability to penetrate skin. It also break down any protective MOPP gear immediately.

It is for contagious bio weopons. But if you in any way supected chemical/nerve you would never EVER use bleach.

Oh, one other thing. One of the posters indicated that nerve gas is stored in binary form, and mixed only when armed.

That is the way *we* do it. Our delivery mechanisms are very advanced and dwell on force protection like all of our military procedures. The Russians, being very good at chemical weapons protocols, work the same way. However, any independent nation, especially one that doesn't respect the lives of their people will take the easy way out and just pre-mix everything. It's easier to work with in the field that way, but just more dangerous to transport.

As to our finding "pesticide",if I remember correctly it is possible to store a pesticide which is a precursor to nerve gas along with the reactant that will make it full blown nerve agent in the same place and then react them prior to loading. This wouldn't be a safety thing like a binary system, in fact, it would be really dangerous and difficult, but if it were discovered, you would be caught holding pesticide and a legal dual use chemical rather than a WMD. Useful if you have inspectors running around.

The Litmus Test is Hans Blix. If he says they're WMD then they're WMD. If they are you hold his nose in it. If they're not you hold GWB's nose in it

Just a thought ...if I wanted to hide something that I knew would lead to my criminal implication and the removal of my regime from leading my country I'd be hiding things in ways that might be tricky. Perphaps these barrels were meant to seem ordinary though the contents are extraordinary. On the put CN or CS gas on top comment ...do you mean its just floating on top without mixing or do you mean as a way to cover a lower concealed lid within the barrel?

"As to our finding "pesticide",if I remember correctly it is possible to store a pesticide which is a precursor to nerve gas along with the reactant that will make it full blown nerve agent in the same place and then react them prior to loading...Useful if you have inspectors running around."

Or useful if you live in an agricultural country with lots of malaria on top of that.

This is fairly moot if the NPR story about 20 warheads with sarin and mustard gas is true. In the NPR link mentioned by Gary above, the reporter quoted a military leader from the 101st as saying the stuff was loaded into medium-range rockets and ready to be fired, although it had not been as of yet. Unless someone wants to argue that these rockets are being used to somehow control local insect incursions (not counting members of Saddam's family)?

I would expect Iraq, which has a chemical industry to use DDT for malaria control. It's easy to make, harmless to the environment (Silent Spring was a lie that killed millions throughout the third world) and cheap.

Not that Saddam is much of an environmentalist.

Also:

Bleach kills organic material such as those found in biological warfare agents. It should be common decontamination procedure for unkown toxin contact.

Someone earlier wrote about DDT as something real bad --it is not--... and also about anti-malarial chemicals. Hmm.... maybe this is an opportunity for some of the enviornmentalists, PETA folks (not those who are People who Eat Tasty Animals) to go to a site and really find out about DDT and its wonderful "proper" uses... it might be the best chemical for after the war to fight mosquitos... go to http://www.junkscience.com/

Some one wrote:
-- DDT? Environmentalists should be even more pissed than if it were found to be nerve gas. Labor unions, worker saftey groups, the Greens, feminists should be outraged.... No. Can we think about the children for once. --

The delivery of anti-malarial drugs to Iraq has been blocked for years. Thinking of the children?

If you bother to read the article it states that the containers (55 gallon drums and 20 gallon plastic containers) where found in an area described as an "empty training camp" and that the soldiers found "an unusually large amount of chemical protection gear" before finding the chemicals.

It doesn't sound like old farmer Ali storing his pesticides.

DDT FAQ from the CDC. FYI.

A colonel in the Iraqi military led them to the well hidden trench and said nerve gas was buried there. I guess that doesn't raise anyone suspicions.

"Bleach kills organic material such as those found in biological warfare agents. It should be common decontamination procedure for unkown toxin contact."

Holy smokes. I can tell you have not been in the service. Bleach is never to be used if chemical weapons exposure is suspected. Sarin, Tuban, VX all are exponentially more lethel if combined with bleach on the skin.

Ken,

Are you sure you remember correctly about the bleach? Google turns up many sites recommending bleach, such as this one:

http://hld.sbccom.army.mil/ip/bca_qr.htm

Im with Ken here. Haven't you ever seen "The Rock" w/ Nic Cage? If bleach was the way to go, im sure Mr. Cage would of carried some on his person instead of sticking that needle in his chest.

---"The delivery of anti-malarial drugs to Iraq has been blocked for years. Thinking of the children?"---

Ha ha. So, still for the "Saddam can be detained" policy?

George,
The bleach is used for objects as your citation indicates. You would never put bleach on your skin if exposed or suspected. I don't think the chart is accurate. If you keep up on this stuff the oil in your skin helps and new lotions are being developed (they may be being used by the decontamination teams) to protect skin, I am sure they would be broken down by bleach. I saw a scene with an aweful lot of our own people with no protection. They looked like they were at the site of a small piant thinner spill.

Thanks for the info, DeepBreath.

CS makes me think of carbon disulfide (of course that's CS2) which really stinks. It's hard to see those abbreviations and not think about molecular formulas.

Yahoo News appears to be backtracking on its earlier report that the chemical agents were found to be merely pesticides.

Only Pesticides? Does anyone remember Bhopal India?

Take enough raid, place it in the head of a SCUD or two, and what do you have?

Thanks Dale
Latest Yahoo news stories show pesticides likely conclusion. Shows "military site" is not WMD site and, and only remeain question is agricultural site where stuff may well be pesticides.
Thanks

Eskimo -

I think I see the distinction. Interestingly, however, both reports are taken into account by those who argue that either site may contain WMD - that it is premature to rule one way or another.

These reports, and so many postings of the same story here on command post, trouble me. From a logical standpoiint there is nothing to suggest we are not looking at improperly stored pesticides (common enough in the states as well). People seem to be reaching. Every "suspicious" element looks innocous enough to me.

I can't help but note that the Army experts on the ground are pretty much saying these are pesticide storage. Could they be WMD froim the tests? Yes, but so could be s million barrels of pesticides anywhere else in the world. They are all going to show the same false reading.

The exception is the missile story. But as I pointed out this morning after hearing it on NPR, the weapons were identified as rockets with a "300 mile range." Ok, we know the system in question fires rockets with about five to 15 mile range. Conventionally this would be an older, legal and expected system in Iraq. Ergo this reporter doesn't seem to know anything about weapons. The only repetition of the story is really other news sources citing the NPR reporters' garbled facts, not independent confirmation.

Here is the way I see it. As we know Saddam didn't use his weapons either because: a) he doesn't have them ( marginally possible); b) he doesn't have them weaponized (why bother having them?); c)or because he figures the political disadvantages would be worse (possible).

I would rank the likely hood as c, a then b. Before anyone blows a gasket I do firmly believe proper investigation (which Blix could not have done) will show Saddam has engaged in forbidden research, aquisition, etc. I don't think thse research materials are in old drums in shacks though.

Friends, just as it would be very bad internationally for Saddam to use weaponized systems, it would be a profound and immediate advantage for us to show them if he did. Large numbers of lives would be saved as Saddam was shown to be false.
Hence I believe that the "rocket" find is an error. That is why it repeats nowhere even though it would be a huge huge story.

Before anyone says the Pentagon would keep it quiet, I would say no. In the US the polls support us no mater what, but look at Spain and our other allies. We would be holding back information that would be an immense and needed boost to those who stood with us. Moreover moving these systems and keeping them quite for any length of time would greatly lessen our credibilty when we showed them. We can't have them show up at a press conference and not have people think they are a plant.

I hope people consider this before posting any more stories on these "finds". Look what it will mean when we look at command post in a few months. CP will have a record of having more wrong stories than every "media" aoutlet people love to hate.

I am posting this on a few related threads. Sorry its long, sue me.

have to disagree with you on this one, Silent Spring and the ensuing focus on the chemical and pesticide industry we should be very very thankful for. the US and the world have been and will be much safer the less of this crap that we use. DDT may have taken the brunt of public opinion but the book of course is much more encompassing than that. i dont think anyone can argue with the basic premise of SS that citizens need to be informed and the govt needs to regulate because corporations wont give a crap about us or the environment and will be driven by profits. if its mildly improved today we have SS to thank among other influences

>DDT...It's easy to make, harmless to the environment (Silent Spring was a lie that killed millions throughout the third world) and cheap.

My recollection from chemical warfare defense officer training was that bleach is an acceptable alternative decontamination agent, for EQUIPMENT.... Ken (vet) is adamant that bleach makes it worse for nerve agents--someone needs to check or remember the manual. Since his experience is more recent I defer to him, but I think he's talking about PERSONAL (individual skin and clothing)
decon... or maybe bleach is acceptable only for personal decon of other-than-nerve agents (mustard, choking agents such as phosgene). From what I've read elsewhere recently, during the Iran-Iraq war the Iraqis experimented with a virtual witches brew of different mixtures, probably in an attempt to defeat Iranian rudimentary personal chemical defense measures.

Twenty years ago every Army vehicle was required to carry a small empty container with CO2 cartridge to be filled with a motor-oil like can of a corrosive oily substance. These cans were stored as part of the unit's chemical equipment. I don't remember what the stuff was, but it was specifically designed to be used as a decontamination agent for ANY liquid contamination of vehicles and equipment. My recollection of the manual was that when this stuff was used up, bleach was an acceptable alternative for equipment decon only. Personal decon of clothing and skin was to be done by some other substance that was in some other decon kit (I think). So the confusion may be arising from you-all's assumption that people and equipment decon is the same process, plus some combo of incorrect early reporting.

Why should these posts 'trouble' you ? Bugged ? maybe... annoyed ? ok ...

But 'troubled' ? This is a weblog site, not a UNMOVIC or USAMRID briefing centre. It's not even the National Enquirer.

Yeah, the purpose of the blog I tought was to collect stories about the war from Iraq.

Geez, the pronouncments from the Minister of Disinformation are happily blogged here for everyone to laugh at, why not these?

city boys, aren't you?

I mix herbicides and pesticides all the time, as I am a farmer.
I don't store my chemistry in the original Monsanto company containers.
When mixed, and I have left overs, I put it in old rusty 45 Gallon drums.

If the iraqi's have chems ready to use, it's not unreasonable to think that they have it pre- mixed, ready to use.

What do you expect? a box with "made in France" to be found?

"Phosgene is a chemical weapon on it's own"

Ohhh, here we go. Now that is interesting since you can buy it legally in the US.

Look, you can find old pesticides buried in barrels across every state in our own country. You can find them in groundwater and rivers here as well.
I think the military is blowing our credibility by showcasing these "discoveries." The flea medication on the average American housepet will set off one of these chemical "weapons" detectors.
Looks like even the "Sarin" missile story has now been shot down. What next, pictures of Saddam shooting JFK from the grassy knoll?