Funny. If you read the article he says we just noticed they were against us. Hmmm. I don't think we just noticed. I think we finally have an administration that's looking out for our interests in the world. Not one running the country by polls and international favor.

I think that's what he means.. I remember he was the first of the neocons recently to admit Syria should be next, specifically getting them out of Lebanon.

I know the idea had been mumbled, but he was the first to say it on Hardball, and so particularly describe it as a next course of action.

He forgets the North Koreans.

The real world war is against countries that have or seek to have weapons of mass destruction and which may, for whatever reason, use them against us (probably covertly) or give them to terrorists.

Again, France believes we are trying to take over the world. Whether you think they are idiots or not, there is a lot of rhetoric coming out of certain officials in the administration and out that does lend credence to the American Empire theory.

WW IV? Did I fall asleep recently, and missed WW III? Or does the author contend that the Cold War was actually WW III?

Here all the science fiction stories I have read predicted that WW III will result in 3 legged chickens and other mutations as a result of nuclear fallout.

It's getting harder all the time to keep up with current events, I guess...

It's not that we just noticed it. Rather, I think 9/11 was a wake-up call that we couldn't afford to duck the threat any more. Unfortunately, I don't think anything less than an attack on that scale would have been sufficient to motivate the people and give the Prez the political backing necessary to put us on a war footing. Also, sounds like Woolsey has just been reading back copies of the Wall Street Journal - their editorial folks have been calling this WWIV for some time now.

Hm. The third or fourth?

I never thought we'd lose track of which world war we're fighting. Not in my life time anyway.

James Lileks also used the phrase in the past week or so, as is "WWIV, SW Asian Theater, Mespotamian campaign".

Syria, Iran, NK and the Saudi occupied territories are possible future fronts. There's still al Qaeda mop-up and don't forget terrorism's big leagues: Hezbollah, Hamas and, especially, Fatah.

Eh, I don't think Woosley is behind the times Rig, if anything is the one of the sources of "the times" and a key figure in the neocon movement that put this war where it is right now.

The WSJ editorial board is sympathetic to his views in many cases.

WWII came from the aftermath of WWI by way of the Treaty of Versailles.
WWIII came from the aftermath of WWII by way of the lend-lease act (and other elements) smoothing over the very real difference.
WWIV is against the proxies left in the aftermath of WWIII.

Don't forget Arafat either!

TangoEchoXray -

So let them blither about "American Empire", and stay out of serious business. In retrospect, shouldn't we be enormously thankful that we're not dragging the French along in our baggage train? Thank God they un-invited themselves from history. Let them keep doing it ... we don't need the cynicism and selfishness of "Old Europe" any more than we need their military expertise.

Have you been sleeping in class?
The single biggest thing that can be done to reduce the threat of terrorism is to find a solution to the Israel-Palestine question.
Both sides have to show forgiveness and a will to go forward.
The only way to avoid further war (which spells killing and maiming of innocent people - those fighting against USA are brain washed by Saddam, and in the end, if anyone invades your country, chances are you are going to resist it)

I'm not sure if I buy the whole WWIII was the cold war. It was more of a stand off.

I think 9-11 was the first day of WWIII

mmmh PAX Americana has a nice ring to it.

C'mon, Mads! No one in the region gives a flying rat's ass about any Palestinian quest for peaceful coexistence. This culture clash - hatred of the West in general and Israel and the United States in particular.

WWIV. Very trendy.

Mads, nice bit of moral equivelency. Give us a break. Israel has made concessions ad infinitum and Palestinian Arabs have refused them at all times, going back to the original British offer for their own statehood and the 1947 UNSEC Resolution 181 which also gave them statehood.

You are living in a dreamland if you believe Palestinians, under the current leadership and with the current state of their culture, are interested in anything less than the death and expulsion of Jews. Palestinians are pawns on the chess board of their neighboring Arab "brothers" and Israel will not and cannot give it the benefit of the doubt.

This is not a little schoolyard fight where you can tell each kid to kiss and make up. One side wants peace overwhemingly, one wants death.

Get a clue!

I would be really frightened by the neocons and their World War IV rap except that I think there is no way we are going to embark on that path. There's simply hardly any enough support for it.

I voted for Bush and somewhat reluctantly support this war. But there is no way in hell I support any wars against Syria, Iran etc. and I do not personally know anyone else, I mean outside of the media and message boards, who does. I say let's finish off Saddam and refocus on the home front.

"The single biggest thing that can be done to reduce the threat of terrorism is to find a solution to the Israel-Palestine question. Both sides have to show forgiveness..."

Yeah, I can hear it now:

Israeli guy: "I forgive you for blowing yourself up in the pizza place where my family was eating, in an attempt to kill as many civilians as possible."

Palestinian guy: "I forive you for being infidel slime who are unwilling to be driven into the sea."

I don't hold out a lot of hope for peace over there any time soon...

"WWIV. Very trendy."

Especially since it makes us 3-0.

I think the Pres knows well that Palestine is central. We MUST have a solution, and soon. This is, I think, going to be forced on Israel whether they like it or not. Bush got tired of dithering by the UN, and I think he's equally tired of dithering by Israel. The UN had 12 years on Saddam, and Israel has had 30 on Palestine (and before any bashing starts, I'm pro-Israel, this is as much for them as anyone else). Enough.

2 more years of this crap...I can't wait until next election day...this "if they don't like us, we'll just kill them" attitude is so very un-american that it is nauseating. To see it get this much credence and support is proof of the failure of the education system of the united states. In Iraq, I say go U.S ~ on the rest of it, I say NO, there is no reason to throw more muscle around. If Iraq is set up correctly, their problems will resolve themselves.

"I say let's finish off Saddam and refocus on the home front."

But why? It's not like we have any homless or jobless Americans. Plus, our schools are so good and so well funded . . .

Look, just because we might call it WWIV doesn't mean we're going to send the 1st MEF into every country that crosses us. With any luck, we'll make such an example of Iraq that, as Rizian seems to hope, at least some other problems will resolve themselves. (Like revolution from within in Iran.) But face it folks, this is a huge geopolitical situation that is not going to go away all by itself. We've still got terrorists to hunt and other rogue states to deal with. You can't just wash your hands after Baghdad and head home. It's going to be long, complicated and sometimes probably messy, but there it is. Get used to it. The other alternative is to wait until DC gets nuked and THEN start doing what we have to do.

We didn't choose to go to war in WWI, WWII, the cold war/WWIII or this war.

If there are more campaigns after Iraq (which I think is, sadly, likely), it will be in response to direct threats. Perhaps we'll be very lucky and the next phase of this war will resemble the last years of the cold war, but we can't bank on that.

"I remember he was the first of the neocons "

Woolsey is hardly a "neocon" he is old school in many ways.

Frankly he is also given to some serious hyperbole and was not well respected at CIA.

I am sure we are not trying to widen the war. One thing at a time is best. But Iran/Syria might be nuts enough to start something on their own, and what then - do we walk away? And abandon Iraq? No way.

Miscalculations start wars, and it looks like one or both may be making a mistake - which is why it is so essential that the 4th and other backup units be brought into the arena ASAP. We may seem momentarily weak to them right now. Iran, in particular, is probably very worried since they are a named member of the AOE. It also depends on if they are ballsy enough to get direcly involved or only via. some somewhat denyable proxy forces.

It's not what we want, but we may have to deal with it - I support our going with strength no matter what. The only reason that they are daring to even consider it is the coward reputation we accquired in the area in prior years.

They will test our resolve - we must convince them that things have changed.

America doesn't have the attitude that we will kill anyone who doesn't like us. But we do and should have the attitude that we will kill anyone who has openly declared and begun to seek our ends.

Syria doesn't just like us, they conspire against us and the only free and democratic nation in their region, Israel.

The idea that Israel has had 30 years on the Palestinians, and then to say you're pro Israel, what a joke! Israel, while imperfect as we are in the US, is simply not equivelent to its neighbors. Israel already is living in a state of concession, by the size of its lands and in the midsts of longtime enemies.

Ask yourself why Jordan, which has a population of 75% Palestinians, and comprises 3/4 of what was originally British mandated Palestine, is not being asked to give up some of its land to Palestinians, or why it created those refugee camps, or why it killed 10,000 Palestinians to keep them from overthrowing the Hashemite government.

Get Clue (TM) people. Israel is not a terrorist state, "Palestine" will be unless it is reformed in a real tangible way. I am not sure Abu Mazen, who got his doctoral in Hollocaust Denial, is a shining example of reform.

Get it?

"Woolsey is hardly a "neocon" he is old school in many ways."

He might be old school in many ways, but when it comes to defense policy right now, he is hanging with the neocon crowd. His past history is just that, his past history.

Wow, someone was given to hyperbole and wasn't liked by the CIA, therefore that means... what? Rumsfeld isn't well liked by the Pentagon.

I'm not saying Woosley is precient or perfect, but he has made a very keen observation. We are at war idealogically, and at different levels of intensity, with many countries right now.

We do not have a choice, we cannot be isolationalists.

DSmith, I think your remarks about a settlement being forced on Israel whether they like it or not is unfortunately what the Road Map is all about.

The Quartet still doesn't seem to understand the one and only issue - which is that Arafat, by the definitions of PLO, may not, will not and cannot give up his fight for the whole of Israel. That's his entire mandate. It does not include any kind of compromise. Look at the patch he wears on his sleeve - it's a map of the whole of Israel.

Now, if he were dead there might be a glimmer of hope.

The only thing that will stop terrorism is to find a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? How will that solve the problem of Islamist terrorism against Hindus in Kashmir, Christians in Nigeria, Christians in Philipines, etc etc , insert religion and country here?

Now finding a solution to the Saudi autocracy, that's another thing.

Why not WWII2 since we're fighting another facist?

WWIII was the Cold War, hence WWIV now. Wolsey has been presenting this analysis, using these terms, at least as far back as November 2002, so he is not just picking up on current newspaper articles.

Aar Owain, actually there's been a bloke down here in Australia who's been rearing three legged chickens for some time thinking all the time that he would sell them to KFC thus increasing his profits considerably, unfortunately the buggers can run so fast that he hasn't been able to catch any of them

Hell, John Madden invented the six-legged turkey. Three-legged chicken, pooh!

Rizian, it isn't that radical islamists don't like us. They hate us. We are the infidel. It's their earthly purpose to kill us. The only thing I know short of killing them first is rounding them up and throwing them in a dungeon. Not really practical. We all hope the states that sponsor them will get the picture. If they don't, too damned bad for them! All you European appeaseniks, they're coming for you too.