Oh no -- faith-based nation-building initiatives. Isn't it bad enough that Bush is sending a posse of neoconservatives to administer Iraq? It's just WRONG -- the future government of Iraq should be decided by the American people in a fair and democratic election!

Stay home! There is enough trouble already.

You know, the part I've always thought the evangelicals were off-the-wall on the Islam this on was this: Muslims have already heard the Gospel. Like, Franklin wants to go share the gospel with these people, but as Muslims they've already heard it. Their religion includes it, but also includes that the Jesus people were out-moded, as it were, by the teachings of Mohammed.

So I don't really know, per se, what exactly a Christian is supposed to do to convert a Muslim. Usually the Jesus-freaks talk about "sharing the Word" or "telling people about Jesus". That doesn't work so good with the Muslims, who know all about Jesus and still aren't Christians.

Bar Billy's dilley from going.
Keep Iraq free from this crap.

This is crap!

We are not conquering the damn country (not supposed to anyway). Why are we...

Nevermind, those Saudi bastards preach their hatred here, let Graham and co. do what they want.

If anything, these people need a shot of Budhism. I can't imagine a bunch of Budhist terrorists...

I think people overreact to this. The point is, Graham and his buddies try to spread their religion by helping people first, and Iraq needs a lot of help right now.

Jonathan, since you've proven you know little about Christianity, perhaps your premise is false, also. If it were true, why do ANY Muslims convert to Christianity, as they have? Because someone teaches them TRUTH about Jesus, not the propaganda their false religion would have them believe.

Here goes the flame war!

Yep, where's my worm can?

FOG,

Looking for truth in religion is a bit like expecting tits to be on a boar.

I've no issue with these religious folks prostelytizing, etc., but if they start trying to leverage conversions via giving people food (its not unheard of in Christian history after all), then they ought to be kicked in the nuts.

Russell,

Depends on whether these people believe in freedom of conscience. I've met my fair of theonomists who don't.

Okay, now you're talking about a subject I actually have some first hand knowledge about. Including regimes that execute missionaries, ban Bibles and the like. If we bar Franklin than we're no better than such thugs.

As for Graham's message, I'm not sure what the problem is. If the message sucks, then it will be rejected by the Iraqi people. But let's let that be THEIR decision.

Just like that democracy thingie we keep taking about.

Gary, given your other posts, your atheism doesn't surprise me. But you better start looking for SOME truth, somewhere.

I don't like the idea of an evangelist going to Iraq, but maybe the guy will keep his mouth shut.

I hope the Iraqis rip Christofascist Franklin's head off.

'If anything, these people need a shot of Budhism. I can't imagine a bunch of Budhist terrorists..."

The Budhist terrorist thing was called the Vietnam war. At least that's what my Vietnam vet uncle considered it to be. God Bless JFK, but it can be said that he was a good catholic trying to support a catholic government in a budhist country.

The whole point is to help the Iraqi people. Let them decide about Graham's message for themselves, not have some religious bigots decide what they can and can't hear. They've had enough of that.

cheers

Mark

Samaritan's Purse has operated successfully in Muslim countries such as the Sudan and Afghanistan. Graham's opinions concerning Islam stem to a large degree of witnessing things, first hand. The organization does not discriminate helping people based on thier beliefs.

Here's an example of what they are doing in Afganistan (off their web site):

"Samaritan’s Purse began working in Kholm, a city of 120,000 people in northern Afghanistan, in January. Since then, we have built a hospital, expanded and improved a health clinic, trained 17 nurses and taught doctors Western medicine, rebuilt and furnished three schools, distributed thousands of gift-filled shoe boxes, and demonstrated God’s love to the people of what had been a closed, Muslim society.

In the future, there will be 600 homes that will help as many as 5,000 refugees resettle in the area, wells that will provide clean water for drinking and to irrigate crops, more schools, and more medical training."

Doing the same in Iraq that should really tick them off. That's not to say that Islamic governments are not threatened by this. On September 12, 2002 a Samaritan Purse hospital in Lui Sudan was bombed by the government of Sudan. This hospital is the only hospital to service 400,000 people with patients walking 15 days to get to it.

Will he have a stop-over in Saudi Arabia?

OK, the Grahams have done good things. I fear I still don't care for their style.

Rich -- this is exactly why I say let them in to do their humanitarian work. Then let the Iraqi people decide if they want it or not.

The other option is big government doing this work.

The worst anyone can say about Graham is that he tries to convert people to Christianity by being nice to them.

Several people here don't seem to realize the ENORMOUS amount of humanitarian work that goes on around the world, day in and day out, performed by Christian relief organizations such as World Vision, Compassion International, Christian Children's Fund, etc. It's a verrry long list of organizations. And that's just scratching the surface: each denomination has its own relief efforts going as well, conducted by local missionaries. You'll find hints of it right here in the USA by thumbing through your local phone book and noting all the schools, hospitals, orphanages and homeless shelters that begin with words like Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, St. Jude's, St. Mary's etc. etc. etc.

Fer cryin' out loud, there shouldn't even be any question about this: let Franklin do his good work. Who cares if he passes out a few Bibles along the way? Do we believe in freedom of religious belief, or not?

I've never been to this site before but feel compelled to respond to this statement:

"Franklin wants to go share the gospel with these people, but as Muslims they've already heard it. Their religion includes it, but also includes that the Jesus people were out-moded, as it were, by the teachings of Mohammed."

Essentially a true statement from what I understand of Islam, but it glosses over some important stuff that explain why Christians believe what we do: Jesus was very clear about His identity and purpose, and that it would cause division among men. Basically, you either believe He's the Son of God or not. And if you don't, then why should you listen to anything else He said?
To claim Jesus was just one of God's prophets completely ignores the central challenge of Christianity. You can't claim to honor Jesus as a "prophet" on one hand and dismiss His stated place in God's plan on the other. OK, maybe you can but I don't think it's being honest.
I know a lot of people don't like hearing that, but there ya have it.

"I think people overreact to this. The point is, Graham and his buddies try to spread their religion by helping people first, and Iraq needs a lot of help right now. "

First of all from a sociological point of view, Christianity and Islam are evangelical offshoots of Judiasm.

I can think of nothing more dangerous than sending evangelicals to Iraq.

I worked in Russia for a few years. After the fall of the USSR many evangelical groups came in. For decades the United States decried the rape and destruction of the orthodox Church in Russia. For the Orthodox there they saw the evangelical Christians taking advantage of their weekness brought about by 70 years of enforced atheism.

Prostelitizing, which is what Graham's group does big time, is not something to do in a defeated country.

"Jesus was very clear about His identity and purpose, and that it would cause division among men."

Actually Jesus was fairly obtuse and spoke in allegory that can be, and is, inerpreted by Christians in very different ways.

" Basically, you either believe He's the Son of God or not. And if you don't, then why should you listen to anything else He said?"

Why should Christians read the old testiment then?

"You can't claim to honor Jesus as a "prophet" on one hand and dismiss His stated place in God's plan on the other."

Here we have someone who doesn't know about religions in context. One could take exactly what this person is saying about Islam's relations to Chritianity and apply it toi Christianity's relation to Judiasm. One could say 'why pay attention to the old testiment, Jesus made it clear all that was rewriten.'

Not necessarily, and I believe you're misrepresenting my point while looking for an argument.

The New Testament is not separate from the old, it builds on it. The last several books of the Old Testament are full of prophetic references to the coming of a Messiah, and the New Testament contains their fulfillment. And it was plain that many things would change with that fulfillment.

Jesus was very clear about His deity. I remember a thing or two about "no one can enter into Heaven" except through Him, and quoting many prophecies that He would fulfill. He used parables and allegory for illustrative purposes but certainly not in every instance as you suggest.

Claiming to be the Son of God was a pretty bold move. It's not as simple as saying something like God didn't require burnt offerings anymore so throw away your Old Testament. The entire Bible in context is about the story of God's relationship to man, particularly the Jewish people, and His final plan for our salvation.

Near the end of Revelation we're instructed to "add or take away nothing to this". That's plain enough, I think, and it illustrates one reason why the Koran does not relate to the New Testament in the way that the New Testament does to the Old.

Like I said, take it or leave it. I'm not trying to convert anyone and I'm certainly not going to get into a theological flame war with strangers in this forum. I simply wanted to illustrate why many Christians believe (and thus behave) as we do - especially regarding how Islam is in conflict, not conjunction, with our faith. I hope you can at least accept the point I was trying to make at face value, instead of taking swipes at me over much larger issues.

Well, there is no need to worry. Chritians have been trying to prostelytize to Muslims for hundreds of years. They are basically ignored.

FOG,

Yes, I know, it sucks to meet a rationale and reasoning individual like myself, doesn't it? Keep your cosmological fallacies to yourself.