..this takes me back..alot longer than I care to think about… thank you very much…if memory serves me correctly the A”rchies” had a song that seems appropriate for this mess..”DIZZY,MY HEAD IS SPINNING..”

Posted by: Rob_NC at September 12, 2004 01:50 PM

Looks like so-called mainstream media is being dragged kicking and screaming into recognizing the vast resources and speed of the blogsphere. A good (by MSM standards) article appeared today in LA Times

No Disputing It: Blogs Are Major Players

That story began Wednesday, 19 minutes after the “60 Minutes II” broadcast began, when another FreeRepublic poster, TankerKC, noted that the documents were “not in the style that we used when I came into the USAF…. Can we get a copy of those memos?”

Less than four hours later, Buckhead pointed to “proportionally spaced fonts” in the memos, which CBS said had been written in the early 1970s by Bush’s commanding officer, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984. Buckhead concluded that the documents had been drafted on a modern-day word processor rather than a typewriter.
—————
Early Thursday morning, Minneapolis lawyer Scott Johnson was in his basement home office, preparing to link some morning news reports to the site he co-authors, when a reader sent an e-mail about Buckhead.

Intrigued, Johnson, whose online ID is “The Big Trunk,” put a link on his site, PowerLine Blog.com, to Buckhead’s post.

Then the floodgates opened.

“Thanks to all the readers who have written regarding this post,” Johnson wrote in an early update. “Several have pointed out that the Executive line of IBM typewriters did have proportionally spaced fonts, although no reader has found the font used in the memos to be a familiar one or thought that the IBM Executive was likely to have been used by the National Guard in the early 1970s.
—————-
Soon Charles Johnson, a Los Angeles musician-turned-conservative-blogger who hosts the site LittleGreenFootballs.com, posted the results of his own investigation. He wrote that he had opened Microsoft Word, set the font to Times New Roman and used the program’s default settings to retype a purported Killian memo from August 1973.

“My Microsoft Word version, typed in 2004, is an exact match for the documents trumpeted by CBS News as ‘authentic,’ ” Johnson wrote, posting images of his creation and the CBS document. (The Times New Roman font itself predates computers; it was designed in 1932.)
———————-
Suddenly, the story line shifted from the question Democrats had been trying to ask — whether Bush received special treatment in the Guard — to whether a network long detested by conservatives had been duped in its quest to air a report critical of the president in the midst of the reelection campaign.

Journalists at mainstream media outlets rushed to consult with experts to check the validity of the documents. The claims of seemingly legitimate analysts posting commentary online could not be ignored.

“If the blog enthusiasts wanted to write a better scenario, they’d have a hard time coming up with one more spectacular than this one,” said Jim Geraghty, host of the Kerry Spot blog published by the conservative National Review, whose e-mail queue was filled by font experts from across the nation wanting to weigh in.

CBS is still stonewalling. Question is, why?

Posted by: Darleen at September 12, 2004 02:29 PM

> CBS is still stonewalling. Question is, why?

First go read The Belmont Club, “Escaping the Kill Zone.” They aren’t necessarily stonewalling, they’re trying quite lamely to find an exit strategy. The explanations they gave on their last two broadcasts didn’t get them out, they dug themselves in deeper. So now you should expect a desperate search for a scapegoat. Some producer, not Rather, naturally, will eventually take the fall for this.

The root cause, I would conjecture, is that CBS and the Texas Democrats were in bed together on this and to allow it to be traced back to the DNC would be death for many careers as well as the whole Kerry campaign. (No. I’m not a Republican.)

Posted by: old_timer at September 12, 2004 04:07 PM

Because they don’t want to reveal the link to the DNC.
The link through Dan Rather to Ben Barns should be obvious enough however.
While its proven without any doubt that the docs are forged, lets not overlook the other lies, like Ben barns’, Who has even resorted to trying to shut his daughter up for telling the world he’s lying.
He has Hanes try pose as a spokenperson for his daughter Amy. Hinton tried to kill Amy Barnes’ interview on Friday with ABC .
Barns works for Kerry’s campaign.

Bobby Hodges of the Texas Air National Guard repudiated the documents which CBS said he would corroborate.

Pat Caddell Knows something s up, he says “the race is over”.

The DNC connection is already there.

Posted by: Nathan at September 12, 2004 04:15 PM

Did I mention Ben Barns and Dan Rather are long time buddies?
Old timer is right in that they will look for a scapegoat.
The obvious scapegoat is Barns, he’s the one the DNC need to out because he’s the link to the DNC.
He has a seedy enough past to be the easy scapegoat, but he’s also too powerfull, and can cause the whole campaign to crumble.

dillema’s dillema’s…..

Posted by: Nathan at September 12, 2004 04:22 PM

Forgery. Case closed. This review was done by an expert that literally was one of those who invented word processing and adapted it from typed text. Read his resume, read his review. He is definitive:
“It is therefore my expert opinion that these documents are modern forgeries.”

http://www.flounder.com/bush.htm

Posted by: mark buehner at September 12, 2004 06:18 PM

It was the Sean Hannity Fox radio interview that Hinton tried to preempt. From listening to that show I gather what happened was that Amy Barns took a big tongue lashing from here Dad after her first radio call-in episode. She then sort-of agreed to back off from calling him a flat out liar.

By this it was assumed by Ben Barns and his staff that she would completely recant and get him off the hook. Hinton then took it upon herself to call Hannity and try to cancel. I’m not really that dumb, one might reasonably assume it was Ben who told her to it.

Next the Hannity show called Amy Barns to verify that that was what she truly wanted to do and she was incensed not only that Hinton tried to scuttle her interview without her knowledge, but that Hinton also
presented herself as a personal friend of Amy’s and not Ben’s professional flack. So, Amy decided to go ahead with the interview, but she would not call her father a liar.

She did everything but say the word, which I would bet is what she told Ben she would not do. Being a headstrong girl she made damn sure he was seen to be a liar without actually uttering the word itself. (I have a daughter like this myself. You don’t cross swords with her unless you are prepared to fight to the end.)

So now what do we have? CBS’s defense is the font type issue is a minor point but we should focus on “The Story” that Bush had a sub-standard performance record. The internet blogosphere on the other hand has shown that the documents are 100% fraudulent. Ben Barns has been shown to be a liar. The children of the late commander to which the documents have been attributed have said this story is fake. The former commander of the whole Texas ANG has said it’s all a big fraud. The whole story
piece by piece is being proven to be a big lie.

Who has to take the fall is all that is left to decide. Dan Rather is too important to the whole network, in fact he is pretty much in control of the news division as the prima-donna in residence. Ben Barns is too
high up in the food chain in the Texas Democratic apparatus and his implication will be a major blow to the Kerry campaign. CBS and the Dems have to circle the wagons and protect their core players. I’m betting Hinton will be thrown to the wolves as well as some faceless 60 Minutes Producer.

Posted by: old_timer at September 12, 2004 06:30 PM

The name of the producer from CBS that called the wife and the son (and then discarded their opinion that the documents were fakes) is Mary Mapes.

This is the allegation of Killian’s son from a radio interview.

There, not faceless anymore.

Posted by: Alan Blue at September 12, 2004 06:45 PM

Mark

I just read the flounder.com site. It’s over. The memos are fake. Period.

Next?

Who created them?

Well, since CBS is brazenly trying to deflect and ignore, and Danny-boy’s Democrat Party affiliations and Bush-family-hatred are so well known, one doesn’t need the magic 8 ball to say “all signs point to Camp Kerry” as the source. Though, who will take the fall as the creator? Well, here’s a suspect that should go on the list.

Posted by: Darleen at September 12, 2004 07:15 PM

Last Sunday I watched Bill Kristol on FOX say that the coming week would be difficult for Bush since new information about his ANG service is being released. He said he didn’t think it would be too damaging, much of it had already been seen, and by the end of the week Bush should have weathered the storm.

My, my. What a difference a week makes.

Tonight Bill Kristol said on FOX that the Swift Boat Vets have been more transparent in their sources for information than CBS.

Posted by: TexasGal at September 12, 2004 07:53 PM

Sorry guys and gals…the memos are real…I am extremely angry that both candidates are being attacked during their “involvement” in the Vietnam War period. Now for the hardball…those interested in researching Jeb Bush’s Vietnam record (if President Bush wins in 2004 he will be the leading candidate in 2008)… you may want to look up his background…he was born on Feb. 11, 1953 (my year of birth) and his draft number was 26. While no one was drafted during this year…the draft ended in December 1972, he did face a pre-induction physical and draft classification…I was told that I would be drafted Feb. 1, 1973….delayed until June 1973….Jeb Bush faced the same process…the draft was suspended forever (we wish) that summer…and by the way, my father is a WWII combat veteran and was sent to Vietnam in early 1964….and his supporting a fellow combat vet John Kerry…

Anyone that lived in this period will remember that the NG and Reserves faced enormous problems with political influence and a society changing for the worse…even the regular Army…anyone that survive these years…drugs, racial tension, riots in our cities, lack of direction during the Nixon years….receives my support…one of my best golfing buddies on a military base…was killed in Alaska during an investigation of drug problems in the early 1970’s…he was only 20…his Dad, a Col. in the U.S. Army, was so pleased he was not being sent to VN…Bob

Posted by: Bob at September 12, 2004 08:15 PM

Bob:

They’re real?

Better prove it. I’ll figure you’ve got a link to the originals - because unless you’ve got that, you’ve got nothing. One break in the chain of evidence renders them worthless.

You have copies of copes - from an evidence standpoint this would be laughed at. You have a document easily reproduceable with 99.98% accuracy in Microsoft Word, using a font and margin and line setting defaults that weren’t in common use at the time, not to mention typographic effects that would have required a high-end word processing system to create back then, which was unlikely to be found in a mere colonel’s office.

And most damning of all - the man who supposedly typed them - didn’t type.

So - what refutation do you have to everything else? And I’ll warn you - “I believe they’re the real thing” doesn’t cut it. Give hard proof.

J.

Posted by: JLL3 at September 12, 2004 08:44 PM

Pretty funny Bob. Been drinkin’ a little too much of the Kool Aid lately?

CBS employees that I have called have no idea of this firestorm….so, of course, I gladly apprised them of the fact that they might want to update their resumes. I was thanked for the info…CBS has outsourced their actual work to Vermont. As far as employees go, they didnt seem to be too enthused about their company…. ha ha ha ha

Posted by: dickmr at September 12, 2004 09:05 PM

Okay people, move on - you heard Bob here, the memos are real. What other proof do you need? Go on, go home. Bob will clean up this mess and get to the bottom of that SOB Jeb Bush’s record as well. He’ll call us when he’s wrapped up all the loose ends.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Posted by: torpedo_eight at September 12, 2004 10:34 PM

Bob sounds a lot like Don (i.e., FOS), but without the random capitalization problem. Oh, and nobody gives a rat’s ass about Jeb, but nice try on the distraction.

What is becoming painfully clear is that neither Kerry nor his supporters give a damn about this country, they just want to be in charge.

Posted by: TL at September 12, 2004 11:16 PM

Rather has dismissed the story and says he won’t respond. The internet, talk radio, and hopefully the Bush campaign will keep it going. Rather and the CBS execs already think they have gotten away with this. If you do a ‘google’ and then hit the ‘google news’ …there already is a lack of news on this travesty. Maybe the alphabet networks will go in for the kill to get ratings up and destroy CBS…That rat Rather needs to be shamed.

Posted by: dickmr at September 12, 2004 11:41 PM

Congratulations, Bob!

I guess you won the $10,500. Way to go. When will your name appear on the site?

Posted by: Darleen at September 13, 2004 12:23 AM

NBC covers it - sorta - well any way the dam has broken

Posted by: M. Simon at September 13, 2004 02:58 AM

Bob: “Sorry guys and gals…the memos are real…”

Sorry Bob…the memos are memorex™:

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug1873-pdf-animate.gif

Posted by: zeppenwolf at September 13, 2004 03:06 AM

Say Didn’t Carville Try this Once Before?

Well maybe just once. Does that count?

Posted by: M. Simon at September 13, 2004 08:02 AM

The memo’s are FAKE!!
CBS staffer spills the beans!

While CBS news anchor Dan Rather can say there is no internal investigation under way over the alleged forged documents used as the foundation for an investigation into President George W. Bush’s National Guard service, you wouldn’t have been able to tell from the 15 or so 60 Minutes and CBS News” staffers working away feverishly on Friday and Saturday to try to nail down their story.

On Friday, according to CBS News sources, Rather spent the day on the phone and dealing with CBS suits who were nervous about the fall out from the story. “All Dan could say was that this was an attack from the right-wing nuts, and that we should have expected this, given the stakes,” says a CBS News producer. “He was terribly defensive and nervous. You could tell.”

All day Friday, Rather, his producer on the story, Mary Mapes, and other 60 Minutes staffers were scrambling to shore up support from their sources on the story. That effort didn’t go so well. By Saturday, one of their key sources, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges, had said that CBS misled him, and that he had never been shown the memos in question.

“We pulled the trick of only calling some sources at the last minute to reconfirm,” says the CBS producer. “Someone called Hodges, I think, on Monday night and read him parts of the document. The late contacts are a standard practice so we don’t tip off the competition or our sources.”

Hodges is a critical loss for CBS News’ credibility. He was the superior officer of the man CBS claims wrote the memo, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.

MEANWHILE, OVER THE WEEKEND journalists from around the country were attempting to track down the original source of the documents. “We’re having a hard time tracking how we got the documents,” says the CBS News producer. “There are at least two people in this building who have insisted we got copies of these memos from the Kerry campaign by way of an additional source. We do not have the originals, and our sources have indicated to us that we will not be getting the originals. How that is possible I don’t know.”

read it all! too long to post here. Damning stuff.

Posted by: Nathan at September 13, 2004 10:00 AM

Wizbang has some comments on the possible source of the documents.

http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003652.php

Posted by: Hungry Valley at September 13, 2004 11:39 AM

Hah!!!

real or fake ignores the preponderance of this story…
-Bush got into the Guard through family influence
-Bush by his own records—throw away any disputed memos—didn’t fulfill his service
-Bush led the charge into Iraq—make up your own reason—and now both Iraq and Afghanistan are messes.
-Bush led the charge for tax cuts—based on reasons that changed with the season—leading to biggest deficits in history.
-Bush’s (lack of) performance as President is a continuation of his dismal string of failures.
-Bush has presented no plan for a second term, except “John Kerry is a sensitive wimp”.

We are left to presume that the same cadre of ideological stooges are going to continue with current policies, and pull the wool over the eyes of dupes. So take it to the bank…unless you are posting on C-P as a top tax bracketer and/or you are not in danger of fighting a chicken-hawk war, you are being duped.

The furor over kerning and MS Word is a red herring. The content of the disputed memos is damning to aWol.

dubyus

Posted by: dubyus at September 13, 2004 02:49 PM

Away with thee, bridge dweller.

Posted by: Ebonic Plague at September 13, 2004 03:15 PM

ROFLMAO!

The facts are conclusive: “Dubyus” is “Bob”…after hitting the water-bong a few (too many!) times.

Posted by: DevilDoc at September 13, 2004 03:28 PM

Sure, dubyus. It’s not whether the memos are real, it is whether or not what it says is true.

So we’ll make a fake semen-stained dress and say it’s just as good as the real one, because we all know what Clinton did with Monica.

We’ll make a fake video of OJ killing his wife and say it’s just as good as the real one, because we all know he really did it.

When Kerry takes office, he ought to make dubyus head of the Ministry of Truth.

Posted by: Gabriel Hanna at September 13, 2004 03:36 PM

I promised myself awhile back that I wouldn’t hook any trolls, but I can’t help myself…

“The content of the disputed memos is damning to aWol.”

Uhhh. The only way that could be true is if the memos are genuine, and if the ‘aWol’ you refer to is the President of the United States. The memos are frauds. Therefore, it would not make a difference if the title was “Ten Commandments”, they are merely pieces of crap with a highrag content. The originals (still frauds) could be used by you on your next trip to the OutHouse and serve some useful purpose.

BTW. Don’t let the door hit you on the be-hind on the way out.

The italicized portion Posted by: du(m)byus at September 13, 2004 02:49 PM

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at September 13, 2004 03:49 PM

dubyus—

You are whistling past the cemetery of Kerry’s campaign.

1) Why does it matter how or why Bush got into the National Guard? He served (and many other political leaders on both sides didn’t). When I was facing the same choice in 1970, we all knew that it was easy to enlist in the Navy to avoid combat. The trade-off that most of us faced was a four year commitment to the Navy vs. two years active duty in the guard plus 5/6 years of weekends and summer camps. Some chose one, some chose the other. Neither of these guys volunteered for the Marines or the infantry….If you are trying to win a battle of “my guys choice 35 years ago was more courageous than your guy’s” well, LOL

2) Bush absolutely fulfilled the terms of his service; he had more months of active duty than Kerry, and accumulated more than enough points to earn an honorable discharge. If your point is that he didn’t earn as many points in some years as others, which was very common, as was the earning of points in other locations than one’s home base, due to travel, job transfers, etc. I knew many people in this period who were attending drills far from their home station…

3) BTW (though the left continues to ignore this) Bush volunteered for service in Viet Nam. His unit was not assigned there, nor was he transferred there because the fighter aircraft on which he was trained and qualified wasn’t used in Nam

4) Bush absolutely led the charge into Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are way ahead of plans in both locations. Do you remember how we were going to be trapped in the quagmire of Afghanistan like the Russians (and British were)? Do you remember the predictions of 10,000 dead in the Iraqi invasion which were ridiculed by the mainstream media as ridiculously low?
Invading foreign countries and trying to create democratic governments where none have existed before is hard and messy work. Look at Haiti, Bosnia, Russia, the other “stans”. That’s why committing to “nation building” is a very serious long term commitment and shouldn’t be taken lightly. The benefit must be worth the cost in lives and money—-see below.

5) Bush did lead the charge for tax cuts, and the recession would have been much deeper without them. Remember the Great Depression? Democrats continue to scapegoat Herbert Hoover for the economic crisis of the early thirties, and rightly so since he focused on balancing the budget to cure the recession. FDR (the Democratic all-time hero) dramatically grew federal spending and deficits after he took office and gradually pulled the economy out of the ditch by massive federal deficits. I don’t like growing the deficit either, but I dislike recessions and unemployment even more.

6) Bush’s biggest failure was trading Sammy Sosa, so he’s not perfect. However, his administration has been filled with successes—despite the opposition of the Democratic Senate leadership. No child left behind, the Medicare prescription drug benefit, expanded HSAs are all positive steps that Clinton couldn’t or didn’t get through in 8 years, even when he controlled the White House and both houses of Congress. Is there more to do? Of course there is—Social Security reform, school choice to get the urban poor kids on the road to success, tax reform, etc. But, even if you take the foreign policy successes away, Bush’s domestic record is far from a dismal string of failures.

7) If you watched or read his Convention speech, you heard many of the proposals for Bush’s second term. He may not get a lot of them through the Congress and the Courts because they are so threatening to the big government biases of the Beltway crowd. However, I want my kids—all 4 of them—to have the ability to control their own futures as prescribed in these “ownership” policies…

I’ve been a top-bracketer; I am certainly not one now. (BTW the top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of the income taxes collected). I have two sons and a daughter who are draftable, if Charlie Rangle and friends have their way. So you can call me a “chicken hawk” but I have a lot to risk in advocating an activist, freedom-promoting foreign policy. I proudly stood at the flag lowering ceremony at Mt. Rushmore last Saturday night (9-11), when the active military, former military and families of military who had died in action came forward to the spontaneous applause of the audience. There wasn’t a dry eye in the house.

You are missing the boat, as the whole left has. The world has changed. Radical, Islamic fundamentalist terrorists are a threat to our every aspect of our civilization—social, economic, artistic, moral, religious and judicial. We must take the fight to them and drive a wedge between the 1 billion moderate Muslims and the 100,000 radicals. We cannot fail on the fundamental job of our government—to maintain the national defense. I lost 4 friends and family on September 11, one on the United plane and three more in the tower. This is no abstract threat to me and my family. I think my 84 year old mother described it best—this is our generation’s Pearl Harbor, but it may take us 50 years not 5 years to win the war.

The WWII and Viet Nam perspectives are outdated. Western Europe is a great place to visit, but is clearly in a long term decline. We will not find much common interest with our traditional allies—France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Scandinavia—unless they give up the Social Democratic agenda and embrace growth and competition as the UK did under Mrs. Thatcher. The future belongs—as it always has—to the younger, more open (democratically, economically and culturally) societies. Our future lies much more with the dynamic societies of East Asia and Australia. There is the potential to expand the beachhead of (classically) liberal democracy in South Asia beyond Israel. India and Turkey are on the way as are some of the Gulf States. Iraq could a great wedge to drive into the region, encouraging the prospects of democracy in Jordan, Egypt and eventually Iran and Pakistan.

At home, the pace of change is just too fast for governments to keep up with. The only answer is to give all our people more responsibilities, capabilities and opportunities. It is unconscionable that the Democratic Party remains in the pocket of the unions, whose primary goals is slowing down the rate of change and preserving the power and income of those who are at risk to innovation. The most outrageous is the lock-step with the teacher’s unions, whose catastrophic failure to help the urban poor is the most egregious failure of government policy in the past 100 years.

So, pay attention to what is really going on. The old order is fading, and you and the Dems are tilting at decaying, decrepit windmills…You can’t or won’t see where the future lies, and are becoming increasingly shrill and pathetically irrelevant.

Posted by: Colorado at September 13, 2004 04:40 PM

if he says something we don’t agree with…he’s a troll.

hah!!

intelligent discourse from Bush dupes.
Colorado…blah, blah, blah. unsubstantiated palaver. no insults…only will address one comment from the only intelligent pouncer. The biggest mistake Wussy made was trading Sammy. Way to go on having the RNC/BC4 talking points down. Let’s look the other way on Arbusto. And the rest of his childhood.

You guys can’t handle dealing in “what’s so.” Bring on the insults. It proves the point.

Ahead of schedule on Iraq? Dreamer.

“so pay attention to what’s going on.” Come back when you want your next order. Maybe in an alternate universe.

Bush - Coward for the Country. Here give me that bullhorn…i’m a tough guy.

dubyus. Or dumbyus. Or dumbass. Have at it.

Posted by: dubyus at September 13, 2004 05:21 PM

You are a troll because you meet logical discussion with lame ass talking points in a blind attempt to protect your candidate.

What is an issue Kerry is for? Beside he was in “a foreign war”

snicker

Posted by: jones at September 13, 2004 05:40 PM

Free Advice to Europeans and Kerry supporters and worth it too. The ultimate word from Asia.

Posted by: M. Simon at September 13, 2004 06:37 PM

dubyus—

I took the time to answer your points, shame on me for thinking you were a toughtful person with sincere points to make…

If you’re interested in dialog, bring it on. If you’re not, don’t waste my time and yours…

Posted by: Colorado at September 13, 2004 07:26 PM

Okay… I’ll return once more to the last line of your first comment - “The content of the disputed memos is damning to aWol.”

The freakin’ things are forgeries hence the contents are worthless. How damning is worthless???

The italicized portion Posted by: dubyus at September 13, 2004 02:49 PM

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at September 13, 2004 09:53 PM

Even Alan Comes on H&C tonight admitted that the memos apparently are fraudulent copies. Sooner or later CBS is going to have to admit their mistakes and mishandling of this or they will be completely marginalized come election night.

There are so many people coming forward to challenge the authenticity and facts stated in the documents it is almost a new face each talk show. Meanwhile, CBS keeps saying that its sources are solid but will not tell us who or from where the source comes from.

I know that there is a suit somewhere up there on the top floor of the CBS palace who is shaking his or her head in disbelief on how they could have botched this up so badly.

Posted by: steve at September 13, 2004 10:37 PM

Ebonic Plague :

Away with thee, bridge dweller.

Chuckle That’s so good I’m going to steal it…

Posted by: aebrain at September 13, 2004 11:05 PM