2004 US Presidential Election
September 10, 2004
Bush | Killian son on H&C
originally posted here
Gary Killian is being interviewed by Alan Colmes right now. He thinks all the documents are forged - nothing new.
Meanwhile, Hannity had Amy Barnes on his radio show today, and apparently, there’s a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on. A publicist for her father apparently called Hannity’s screener and cancelled the interview - purportedly on her behalf. Very fishy stuff.
Killian says he gave names to a CBS producer BEFORE the 60 Minutes report. So what Dan Rather says about corroborating evidence is BS. Rather and his cohorts at CBS refused to air testimony from sources that disagreed with their angle on the story. This is NOT journalism.
Killian says he spoke to Mary Mates (sp?) out of a Dallas office of CBS before the story aired.
No one from CBS has contacted anyone from the Killian family since the story aired. Killian didn’t see Dan Rather’s defense on the CBS Evening News tonight.
Killian says he’d rather just “give it the benefit of the doubt and say they didn’t do their homework.”
Hannity says it seems they were setting up the president.
Colmes will be interviewing Amy Barnes after the break.
Posted by Bryan M at September 10, 2004 09:18 PM | TrackBack
Dan Rather will never question the authenticity of said documents because, like a lot of lefties that enjoy Michael Moore’s fiction pieces - HE WISHES THEM TO BE TRUE.
Old litmus tests for forgeries are passe. We must look past such trivialities if the artifacts achieve some greater good (like unseating that moron Bush).
Then again, uncontrolled rage and obsessive hatred can blind the smartest minds to the truth. Tell people you extensively researched this, but don’t mention you left out the man’s wife, the son with whom he served in the Air Guard, co-workers that knew him for 17 years or the list of people Gary Killian gave you.
I think now is a good time for all of us to close our eyes and imagine world peace.
Posted by: torpedo_eight at September 10, 2004 09:40 PM
Or whirled peas.
Because these black-eyes look to be spoiled on the vine.
Posted by: TexasGal at September 10, 2004 10:02 PM
This morning, the “story” was that CBS was conducting an investigation. A couple of hours later, Rather denied that there was anything wrong with the documents and insisted that he was not going to issue an apology. Tonight, CBS says it stands by the documents and that there is no investigation.
I have to wonder whether the CBS legal staff went apoplectic after hearing of the pending investigation and reined everybody in. It would not be a good idea to admit to shoddy work (at best) or participation in a fraud that could end up in court - if not worse.
Posted by: Jim at September 10, 2004 10:20 PM
Here’s what John Kerry should worry about.
Posted by: the_epistoler at September 10, 2004 10:43 PM
Dan’s world is crashing down, quickly.
HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian’s supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were “handwritten” and after CBS read him excerpts he said, “well if he wrote them that’s what he felt.”
Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70’s and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been “computer generated” and are a “fraud”.
Posted by: the27yanks at September 10, 2004 11:21 PM
Epistoler: I don’t mean to be a jerk about this, but paragraph breaks are your friend. Thanks.
Posted by: Sporkadelic at September 10, 2004 11:22 PM
It appears to me that for every minute of main stream media time that is given to their own defense, hundreds of minutes of blog time is almost simultaneously being conducted challenging and questioning the MSM version.
I don’t think the old dogs at CBS, NBC, ABC and CNN can learn these new tricks.
Dan Rather with a certain amount of elitist attitude found just two things to support his claim and one witness. Meanwhile the bloggers have found over 20 items that are highly suspicious and dozens of experts to refute or challenge Rather’s counter charge.
I do not think that I’ve ever seen a main stream media use its own news time to defend itself… they must be really worried about where this is going… or they really can’t let the sources be known!
Running this type of story (which is at best old news) based purely on third party hearsay and photocopies of documenets is really weak. There has to be someone really high up in CBS who is driving this story to get all the normal checks and balances overcome to make it happen. I wonder what “IOU” or other obscure link to the DNC is being called in or used to pull this one off?
They had better check the latest ABC polls and notice the trends… or maybe they have and need an earthquake to turn things around or act as a diversion.
Posted by: steve at September 10, 2004 11:46 PM
Apparently, Amy barnes has said that her father is writing a book. One unanswered question easily follows, does Ben Barnes have a book deal with on of the various publishers owned by Viacom, the parent of CBS ?
Posted by: J_Crater at September 11, 2004 12:00 AM
It is getting worse by the hours…
Posted by: Blog4Fun at September 11, 2004 12:52 AM
If CBS had any interest in reviving its credibility, they would take Dan Rather off of this story immediatly. Let another journalist, who can work on it impartially, do it. (S)He can interview (and make public) Dan’s experts, ask other experts, find out who supplied the documents, and where they got them from, etc., etc.
Posted by: Half Canadian at September 11, 2004 12:58 AM
FINALLY! I’ve seen that same comment on five different blogs and 4 forums and it finally hits a press outlet. Thanks for posting that.
Posted by: Spade at September 11, 2004 01:27 AM
Oh, and if anybody didn’t know.
Look at the Hodges story mentioned by THE27YANKS.
If you backtrack on here to an MSNBC article where CBS defends the story, an unnamed CBS source says Gen. Hodges was one of the main sources they used to “verify” the story.
Oops. Goodnight Danny boy.
Posted by: Spade at September 11, 2004 02:12 AM
Steve above is worth reading twice. The Dallas CBS producer Mary Mapes, who according to today’s blogs & interviews (God Loves Fox) set-up the Killian group as well as Gen Hodges by bearing false witness then pulling the switcheroo, is also who broke the Abu Ghraib story—after the military had proved to her it was already under investigation, and after they asked her to sit on for the sake of the war effort until Army was ready to arrest, and she gained access by agreeing, only to as here, betray. I guess it was “Screw patriotism, this is chance #2 to “GET GEORGE!” Mary Mapes perhaps thought.
Now she’s a three-fer, ForgeryGate is her third attempt to “GET GEORGE!” (and the keys to Rather’s office), unless she gets arrested for libel on this case and goes jailed again, as she did a few yearts ago for manipulating a race-murder into her first “GET GEORGE!”, when an opportunity to brand him a racist (for being against ‘special’ body of law, hate-crime, since those crimes were/are already illegal, proved when the perps fried, which was ALSO wrong, capital punishment, proving Bush is automatically wrong on all sides of everything!) with the infamous James Bird chain-dragging (remember the Gore ad where Mr. Bird’s daughter said in effect she felt like Gov. Bush was murdering her father over and over again?).
Her—Rather’s—current Bush TANG document expert, Marcel Matley, is now from San Francisco yet somehow was the verifier of Vince Foster’s (Clintons’ personal lawyer) suicide note, over in early 90s D.C. Be sure and Google THAT case.
Look in at Wizbang, check all this yourself on google. Her—Rather’s—only other expert is a looong-time Bush-hater who did the same thing—using a tenuous administrative link to hide an un-media-exposed extreme partisanship behind a bureaucratic veritas-lending title to witness-on-call TANG documents (these looked fine to him!)—for the Ann Richards vs GWB gubernatorial cmpgn that he’s doing for this current conspiracy, which this time is not for Texas Gov but to bring down the leader of the global war on terrorism. Maybe they forgot the little red russian schoolhouse already, as they have certainly forgotten 911, Bali, Spain, Israel, and 500 other abominations.
Oopsa, forgot Ben Barnes, who is as credible on this as any other long-time Kerry employee/fetchboy who also has an impressive number of fraud conspiracies associated and sitting in Google at the moment, along with Mary Mapes and everything else.
You should go read up on these we-want-to-be-your-cultural-and-government-leaders schemers.
These people want full—not partial—control of the country YOU are paying for, and they will sell your ass to the baby-killing plane-crashing head-choppers to get it. We better boycott CBS advertisers, hard, and fast and loudly—and now—because if it’s this easy to steal a Major Network (3ft tall Clintonite Robert Reich tonite on H&C repeatedly squealed “Major, Major, Major!” to mesmerize us with the rudeness of questioning A Network Image, and inadvertantly named the Rather-ish Catch 22 character who instructed his aides that he was ‘only in his office when he wasn’t in his office’), if a little nibble on a fool like Major Major Major Dan’s earlobe’ll do it, then we’re in a lot of trouble.
If these sort of folks ever get their mitts on the Patriot Act, losing your blogs and internet freedoms will be one of your very least problems.
Posted by: Buddy Larsen at September 11, 2004 03:30 AM
I realize the last thing this story needs is another “me too,” so I’ll do what any good media outlet would do with a tired, worn out story: add “human interest.”
I grew up with daisy wheel printers and those little replaceable ball dealies, and like many things that remind people of their youth, have grown inordinately fond of the type they produce. When I see a nicely kerned, proportional font full of serifs and whatnot, like CBS’ alleged memos, I just cringe. I think its ugly and hideous. That’s right, I always type things up in Courier New whenever possible.
How, I ask you, how, can a man whose been in journalism since before 1962 not take one look at these documents and not be able to tell you the equipment needed to produce it in any given decade? He should’ve spent longer in print media, I guess.
Posted by: TBox at September 11, 2004 10:00 AM
Everything You Never Really Wanted to Know About the IBM Selectric Composer, But That Dan Rather is Afraid to Ask…………..
Posted by: ET at September 11, 2004 10:12 AM
But then, there’s this to consider….
Posted by: Don at September 11, 2004 10:43 AM
You can post a link! I am so proud of you. That is soooo goooood.
Now answer the question:
Posted by: jones at September 11, 2004 11:00 AM
On topic, could have been real is not good enough. Not when there are so many other problems with the memos. Michelle has posted so many links to so many glaring red flags, but a few more:
Get hopping Don, you have touched on about 1/5th the points raised. And poorly at that.
Posted by: jones at September 11, 2004 11:07 AM
Interesting Buddy that you bring up Rather’s “coverage” of the Ann Richards vs GWB gubernatorial campaign because I’m beginning to think these forged documents were cooked up down in Texas as part of the 1993 Texas Governor’s race. If we remember, GWB surprisingly defeated Ann Richards with 53% of the vote. And even though the Democrats tried to use GW’s TANG service as an issue, it never grew legs.
Posted by: TexasGal at September 11, 2004 12:17 PM
Check it out from The Kerry Fairy
Apparently the topic has been discussed since Jan 20004.
Posted by: Blog4Fun at September 11, 2004 01:35 PM
Don, the link you sited references the Boston Globe story. The forensics expert BG interviewed is screaming bloody murder saying they misrepresented what he said completely. Heres the interview:
Add together the unlikelihood of any typewriter (if it existed) of that quality and expense being in a NG office used for routine memos along with the fact that the military parlance is all wrong and finally that the mans wife, son, and the other officer referenced all call this out of character for Killian and you have to drink a lot of coolaid to believe this things legit. Occam’s Razor suggests it was printed on Word, 11 pt, default settings considering it matches that pretty exactly without all the wild customization and ball replacement required for a circa 1973 IBM typewriter to have been used.
Posted by: mark buehner at September 11, 2004 01:49 PM
C. S. Forester died before finishing his last Horatio Hornblower novel, but the incomplete story was published as part of the series. In it, a convicted forger, sentenced to hang, bargained successfully for his life, providing in exchange his expertise in documents.
The British government wished to send false orders to a French squadron, tricking it into coming out from a secure position to where it could be attacked. Here are excerpts from that tale.
“Now, gentlemen,” went on Claudius. “With regard to details of a lower degree of sensibility. I take it you have in mind to send your forged letter to a naval, or possibly a military, man? In that case the task can be approached with more confidence. Business men, soulless bankers, hardheaded merchants—men with something more important to lose than other men’s lives—are likely to scrutinize documents very closely. But there is still the risk that some interfering underling on the staff of a general may wish to call attention to himself. It is necessary to be quite perfect. This signature I am confident I can reproduce in perfection. This ink—I believe it can be matched in Chancery Lane; it will be necessary to make complete tests. This printed heading—you will need to have type specially cast in exact imitation. You will have less trouble in that respect than I encountered.”
“You may not appreciate the necessity for uniformity, gentlemen, unless you make use of your imagination. A single document may well be accepted, but you must think of a series. After receiving, let us say, six genuine documents, someone receives one spurious one. The recipient naturally lays them together in the course of the routine of his office. If one is markedly different from all the others—even if one is different in only a small degree— attention is clamorously called to it. Hinc iliac iachrymae. And if that one document has a content somewhat unusual—even though in other circumstances it might have passed—then the fat is in the fire, and Bow Street is called in. Et ego in arcadia vixi, gentlemen.”
“The method of delivery must conform to the method of all the other deliveries. Once again, the greatest care is necessary in allowing nothing to call particular attention to this one item out of all the others.”
Hornblower During the Crisis
A delightful tale. I recommend it.
Posted by: JRM at September 11, 2004 02:07 PM
About the typewriter.
“An Instapundit reader points out that an IBM Selectric Composer -which may have had the capacity to generate a document similar to the CBS document, cost $4,000 in 1972, which would be the equivalent of a $17,900 piece of equipment today. And this equipment would be in an Air National Guard office?”
Posted by: jones at September 11, 2004 02:14 PM