AEB: Thanks for updating this story.

Posted by: TexasGal at August 7, 2004 10:27 AM

Remeber There is no Liberal Media. It is all right wing.

Posted by: jones at August 7, 2004 10:30 AM

Remember that is

Posted by: jones at August 7, 2004 10:31 AM

This story has also now changed.

Just when you think the entertainment’s gotta stop, it only gets better.

Posted by: Don at August 7, 2004 10:41 AM

TexasGal : I hope I’d feel as outraged if a GOP shill had done the same sort of hatchet-job on someone who was saying “Anyone but Bush”.
What really …. irks… me is that they obviously thought they could get away with it. I find that … insulting.

Posted by: aebrain at August 7, 2004 10:42 AM

“This story has also now changed. Just when you think the entertainment’s gotta stop, it only gets better.”

Which story has now changed? Reality™ or the Spin?

The italicized portion Posted by: Don at August 7, 2004 10:41 AM

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 7, 2004 10:50 AM

AEB: I totally agree with you. But thus far I’ve not seen any from the GOP in this election. But there does seem to be a lot of it coming from the DNC side.

My thanks was not partisan motivated but rather I think for the sake of record and archiving for TCP, it’s important that this story be complete.

;-)

Posted by: TexasGal at August 7, 2004 11:29 AM

The Drudge Report is probably wrong in its reporting. It stating that Kranish is the author of the forward because he is listed as the author of the forward on amazon.com. Hugh Hewitt was going to get all over them for it, but he called the Boston Globe to verify the story. The Boston Glove said that Drudge was wrong. Kranish was writing the introduction to a book on Kerry/Edward’s platform that was going to be an investigative book. However, the publisher decided to change the book so that it is just reprinting the Kerry/Edwards position papers. Kranish was then dropped as the author of the forward. Obviously, Amazon.com has just not updated its listing for the author of the forward since the book was changed.

See www.hughhewitt.com for more info (I don’t know how to link to Hugh Hewitt’s permalinks.

Posted by: Ajakk at August 7, 2004 11:49 AM

Don,

You might want to prepare for Winter Soldier.

This Swift Boat thing will be no worse than one of Kerry’s Purple Heart wounds.

The real deal is Winter Soldier.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 7, 2004 12:39 PM

Also want to look up what Giap has to say about Kerry. He gives him a lot of praise.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 7, 2004 12:41 PM

What I haven’t been able to figure out yet is when Kranish was dropped from the book project: before or after he wrote the Elliott piece ?

But aside from that, whether he is still on the project or not, there’s no doubt anymore that he’s a plain old ordinary shill for the Kerry campaign.

Posted by: CERDIP at August 7, 2004 01:14 PM

NOT according to Don. He still implies Kranish is telling the truth with his spins against Republicans, etc. etc. He is whirling real fast now.

All archives here will show that Don HAS NEVER YET let the True facts interfere with lying. It is my observation that he seems to prefer that.

When he is told that Truth requires integrity and honesty, I suspect that his face will refelect a totally bewildered expression!

I could be wrong. I am just judging by all that he has posted. It seems a fair indication of a lack of character.

Posted by: leaddog2 at August 7, 2004 02:09 PM

Of course, I will apologize if I am wrong. I doubt that it will EVER be necessary.

Posted by: leaddog2 at August 7, 2004 02:11 PM

You bet LD2.

I am still waitinging for Don here:

http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/014254.html

Posted by: jones at August 7, 2004 02:19 PM

“This story has also now changed. Just when you think the entertainment’s gotta stop, it only gets better.”

I see no entertainment value in any of this. What I did do was ACTUALLY READ the affidavits provided by Captain George Elliott, and they are both rather telling.

I could care less how the Globe wants to spin their Top. I would suggest as does Alan E, that those who are interested read them for themselves.

You might think this is the BigTop and we’re all a bunch of Clowns Don, but please use a little common sense. If Senator Kerry wishes to tout himself as a WarHero in order to overcome or gloss over his Post-InCountry antics, he’s going to need more than a RingMaster and LionTamer.

The italicized portion Posted by: Don at August 7, 2004 10:41 AM

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 7, 2004 02:27 PM

jones Don’t hold your breath on that one, or any other thread such as this one. No EntertainmentValue™

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 7, 2004 02:34 PM

For the life of me, I couldn’t figure out why Kerry would run on his war record when it is in reality pretty weak. Then I started looking at his congressional record, and his record on the Senate Intelligence committee, and it is much worse! When Bush starts hitting him on his record, watch out. And oh, his energy policy is pie in the sky crap, too. I hope discerning Americans can figure this out.

Chads

Posted by: Chads at August 7, 2004 02:54 PM

AEB is on the case - it’s like nikita never left.

Do us a small favour, mate. Focus those forensic skills on who set up, funds and organises the Swift Boat Vets. I share TexasGal’s wish that the story be complete. If all the mud is being slung by the DNC, let’s archive it here on the CP.

Posted by: bananas at August 7, 2004 03:06 PM

“who set up, funds and organises the Swift Boat Vets”

Why, because you can’t touch their story?

Would you feel better if it were George Soros?

Posted by: jones at August 7, 2004 03:27 PM

“Do us a small favour, mate. Focus those forensic skills on who set up, funds and organises the Swift Boat Vets. I share TexasGal’s wish that the story be complete. If all the mud is being slung by the DNC, let’s archive it here on the CP.”

So, YellowSkinnedHerb. This is MUD the SwiftBoatVets are slingin’, is it? Spend a pleasurable couple of hours Googlin’ TIDES. See where that little Tour takes you. Hint - You won’t be takin’ a ride on a SwiftBoat.

The italicized portion Posted by: bananas at August 7, 2004 03:06 PM

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 7, 2004 03:34 PM

Michael Kranish also wrote a story that Kerry received an honorable discharge in 1970. Even when Kerry’s posted records showed that to be untrue (which was obvious to me since Kerry and I both entered the Navy about the same time), and I emailed him, I received no response and as far as I know, 1970 is still the Globe’s official Kerry discharge date when the real date is in 1978.

There is also a deceptive set of dates in Kerry’s biography, showing service from 1966-1970. But during his years of anti-war (or more accurately, anti-US ) activity, he was an officer in the Naval Reserves.

The story on the Swift Boat Vets is simple. Admiral (ret) Hoffman set it up when it became apparent that Kerry was going to be the candidate. Over 250 Swift Boat veterans joined the group. Every single person in Kerry’s chain of command, through CINCPAC, pronounced him unfit for command. This happened early - May 5 - because the Democrats in the organization wanted the party to have a chance to change nominees.

It is NOT a Republican organization. It’s members represent a spectrum of belief. The chief spokesman, John O’Neill, has been called a Republican shill, which is a nasty and incorrect attack on an honorable and respected man. His only tie to Nixon was that Colson invited him to the White House to provide encouragement when O’Neill was debating Kerry. That’s it.

The PR firm has had Republican ties, but it is owned by the widow of O’Neill’s law partner, and he had used it many times for commercial activity. One would hardly expect the organization to use, say, Bill Clinton’s PR firm.

Posted by: John Moore ( Useful Fools ) at August 7, 2004 03:35 PM

John Moore Good read and well put. I don’t follow a lot of the Background Players, nor do I really care what the Democrats want to make of this. I’m sure there will be many more attempts made to discredit these guys (SwiftBoatVets), but they’re made of the RightStuff. No PhotoShop players in this bunch that I can find.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 7, 2004 05:08 PM

FYI,

Drudge has the following from the cached Google site for the publishers of the Kerry-Edwards campaign book. The phrase “WITH AN INTRODUCTION BY MICHAEL KRANISH OF THE BOSTON GLOBE ” is no longer in the updated “cleansed” site.

KERRY AND EDWARDS
Their Plans and Promises
WITH AN INTRODUCTION BY MICHAEL KRANISH OF THE BOSTON GLOBE

SUMMARY | EXCERPT | AUTHOR’S NOTE
The Kerry and Edwards plan for America

John Kerry and his running mate, Senator John Edwards of North Carolina, have a plan: an ambitious, detailed blueprint to alter the current course of America and re-direct its future. They call it the “Real Deal.” But what does it really promise? How do Kerry and Edwards plan to roll back our damaged foreign relations? How will they improve our economy, restore jobs, and manage to make America safer, stronger, and more secure? Here are their proposals:
 Restoring Jobs and Rebuilding the Economy
 Winning the Peace in Iraq
 Providing Access to Affordable Healthcare
 Defending the American Homeland
 Creating a New Era for America’s Schools
 Helping to Create a Cleaner and Greener America
 Instituting a Principled Foreign Policy
 Making College Affordable for All Americans

Kerry and Edwards: Their Plans and Promises delineates issue-by-issue the promises and the plans of the Kerry/Edwards ticket. In his introduction, the Boston Globe’s Michael Kranish offers penetrating insight into the policies of a Kerry administration, and what they could mean for America.

Kerry and Edwards: Their Plans and Promises cuts through the rhetoric to the details of the “Real Deal.” Now Democrats and Republicans alike can judge for themselves exactly what the Kerry/Edwards ticket is offering America in what is shaping up to be one of the fiercest, most passionate political contests in generations.

Posted by: Hangtown Bob at August 7, 2004 05:47 PM

Hmm.

O’Neill, the Nixon goon, has been banging this drum on and off for over three decades. SBVFT set up with help from wife of guy who ran for Texas Lt Gov on GWB’s ticket. Six-figure funding by Texas GOP donors and Bush family friends, including a trustee of the GHWB Presidential Library Foundation. Website put up by Missouri GOP stalwart and associate of John Ashcroft. Web design by guy who runs Free Republic Network. O’Neill’s Kerry book cowritten by the delightful homophobe and antisemite Jerome Corsi, a denizen of the Free Republic, whose interesting views are detailed here.

John McCain’s response to this ad:

Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, a war hero himself, denounced the Swift Boat group’s ad as “dishonest and dishonorable,” and pointed out a similar tactic was used against him four years ago during his contentious primary race against Mr. Bush.
On Thursday, McCain called on the White House to condemn the practice.

Scott McClellan said recently on the President’s behalf:”“We have been very clear in stating that, you know, we will not — and we have not and we will not question Senator Kerry’s service in Vietnam,”.

Riiiight. That’s clear. As clear as Thurlow criticising Kerry’s service, and Van O’Dell stating Kerry didn’t deserve his Bronze Star, which was awarded for the same mission in which Thurlow earned a Bronze Star. Needless to say, Thurlow tends not to mention this when contradicting the recollections of Rassman, the guy whose life was saved by Kerry on that mission. Thurlow says he didn’t know at the time that Rassman recommended Kerry be decorated for rescuing him under fire. Maybe so. But why, since he recalls: “It soon became apparent there was no ambush.”, did he accept his Bronze Star? Curious.

Posted by: bananas at August 7, 2004 05:57 PM

bananas,

Next up on your list of explanations is Cambodia ‘68.

That is a toughie. Well skip that one for now. We can come back to it later.

Here is an easier one. Why did Kerry meet with officials in the Communist government of Vietnam before giving his Congressional testimony? A 26 year old nobody. Who made the connection for him?

bananas, it is possible to spin your way out of one or two points. But is it beginning to look like a pattern of lies?

BTW is Kerry a war criminal as he claimed or a liar?

Good to see some answers.

Better to see fear. Or perhaps Kerry could teach you how to panic under fire. Or go immobile for 40 minutes or 20 years.

Don’t you just love a good fight?

Posted by: M. Simon at August 7, 2004 06:44 PM

Kerry lovers,

Doin’ pretty good so far.

Next up on your list of explanations is Cambodia ‘68.

That is a toughie. Well skip that one for now. We can come back to it later.

Here is an easier one. Why did Kerry meet with officials in the Communist government of Vietnam before giving his Congressional testimony? A 26 year old nobody. Who made the connection for him?

It is possible to spin your way out of one or two points. But is it beginning to look like a pattern of lies?

BTW is Kerry a war criminal as he claimed or a liar?

Good to see some answers.

Better to see fear. Or perhaps Kerry could teach you how to panic under fire. Or go immobile for 40 minutes or 20 years.

Don’t you just love a good fight?

One further question were the troops commanded to commit war crimes as Kerry claimed or were they isolated incidents. i.e. Do you wish to slime the vets? Or would you prefer Kerry lied?

Solid ground is getting smaller and smaller here. Perhaps OIC Kerry will pick you up.

Kerry shoulda stuck to telling his war stories in bars. Very few fact checkers in bars.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 7, 2004 06:52 PM

Kerry is in a beautiful position to knock down all these blow hards.

Release his FULL service record.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 7, 2004 06:53 PM

bananas Did you spend as much time Googlin’ up TIDES???

Give us a full report on that one, will ya?

Tell ‘em Teresa sent ya.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 7, 2004 07:39 PM

John Kerry is TOTALLY AFRAID to have his service record released and he will fight it harder than he ever fought anything in Vietnam.

He knows that the TRUTH will DESTROY HIM.

If Kerry is NOT AFRAID, let him release the records! Bush did when the foul DNC was spreading all of Moore’s and McAuliffe’s lies.

Posted by: leaddog2 at August 7, 2004 09:22 PM

Kerry could make this whole thing go away if he had proof that these guys were lying about any of it.

Letson said that the first wound Kerry received was about the size of a scratch from a rosebush. Why doesn’t Kerry release his medical records and expose this as a lie?

Could it be that Letson is telling the truth?

Posted by: Bostonian at August 8, 2004 12:13 AM

So, nobody prepared to deny the Swift Boat brouhaha has at a bare minimum the tacit approval of Karl Rove.

The SBVFT are to GWB in 2004 what Willie Horton was to GHWB in 1988. A Friends And Family smear job.

More from MediaMatters on the, er, confused testimony of the SWBVT. Admiral Hoffman, co-founder:

May 6 2004: “Hoffman acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry’s claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn’t know Kerry much personally.” [Milwaukee Journal Sentinel]
Aug 4 2004: “‘I knew him well enough to know him,” Hoffman said. ‘He’s the most vain individual I’ve ever met - aloof and arrogant.’” [Scripps Howard News Service]
Aug 5 2004: “I knew him well,…” [ABC Radio’s Sean Hannity Show]

What happened? Meditation? Therapy? Or a realisation he ought to be on message? More funniness at the end of that Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article:

Hoffmann denied [his group was politically motivated], saying his group had no links to the Republican Party or the Bush campaign.

Is he still saying that, or has that ‘fact’ changed?

Posted by: bananas at August 8, 2004 12:51 AM

YellowSkinnedHerb Too hot for you in the Kitchen?

LOL.

I Love it when you talk Dirt. I take that back - Mud.
Come back and be taken seriously when you can bring an argument.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 8, 2004 02:33 AM

Who are you?

Posted by: bananas at August 8, 2004 03:41 AM

rdelephant Send me an email. I’ll give you directions.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 8, 2004 07:51 AM

I’m not very familiar with US Federal law or the US version of the UCMJ, but maybe someone can tell me…

is it possible for Kerry to be charged with treason some thirty-odd years after the fact?

1969 to 1972 sure are some interesting years in the Kerry timeline…

Posted by: CERDIP at August 8, 2004 08:58 AM

bananas,

Good too see that you have accepted that Kerry is a liar or a war criminal. Now we are getting some where. You must have studied Winter Soldier.

So now the question is: is it political. Specifically Republican?

Let me tell you. You have no idea of the level of hatred for Kerry the Vets have. No idea.

He slimed the Vets. He slimed America. This sliming caused a policy change that killed two million plus and put 25 million or more under the yoke of the communists.

We don’t need no stinkin Karl Rove.

Our hatred is white hot. You hate Bush - dim red.
Our output peaks in the x-ray region.

Forget the politics.

Can a man who is ordered more than one not to shoot at anything that moves because of his fear be trusted as president.

Suppose his fear takes over and he pushes the button?

The vets (Dem and Republican) do not trust this son of a bitch who sold out his country once already. What exactly did the NV reps. tell him in Paris?

Kerry is scum of the earth.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 8, 2004 03:40 PM

Can a man who was ordered more than once not to shoot at anything that moves because of his fear be trusted as president?

Here is a man who can’t master his fear.

He is by rights a traitor if not by law.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 8, 2004 03:44 PM

Interesting isn’t it that the more this story unfolds the less able the left is to defend sKerry.

The volume of defence has gone way down.

Bush in a landslide.

Because some of us still remember.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 8, 2004 03:50 PM

Bush got through 9/11 without going nuclear.

Could scarry Kerry do as well?

Given his record do you want to find out?

Posted by: M. Simon at August 8, 2004 03:56 PM

This site is a nexus for idiots and the differently sane. It is no longer interesting.

Posted by: bananas at August 8, 2004 05:48 PM

The Boston Globe deliberately LIED in it’s story saying that George Elliott retracted his statement on Kerry.

NOW that their lie has been EXPOSED, they are STILL TRYING to CLAIM that Elliott lied EVEN AFTER he provided a SECOND AffADAVIT saying ALL of HIS STATEMENTS about Kerry were TRUE.

The Boston Globe HAS BEEN CAUGHT creating lies and are trying to cover their ass. They will fail. This type of deliberate and ficticious Libel against Captain Elliott can cost the Globe’s owners MILLIONS of Dollars and it should. They could and should lose ownership of the paper to an honest group of people. Massachusetts deserves honesty from somewhere. It gets NONE from either U.S. Senator.

Posted by: leaddog2 at August 8, 2004 07:05 PM

Wow….I’d hoped each “side” in this discussion would try hard to bring documentation to what is clearly an interesting topic. I’d have thought this would have branched out to discuss Mr. Bush’s National Guard records and his superior officers recollections (or lack thereof) of his performance, or the actual transcripts of Kerry’s testimony all those years ago, or any documented or trackable tangents; anything but semi-dogmatic squabbling. This thread started out very promisingly…can it be steered back in that direction? Is it being suggested that Kerry’s entire crew is now publicly lying? That is interesting, does anyone have any news or evidence of that? Any motivations? Has there been any official explanation for Kerry not releasing his full service records? I’m off to see what I can find on that….

Posted by: Jatsby at August 8, 2004 08:10 PM

I’d have thought this would have branched out to discuss Mr. Bush’s National Guard records and his superior officers recollections (or lack thereof) of his performance

Jatsby,

Maybe you’re just late to the party, that’s all. We’ve been through all that already. The point is .. where are Kerry’s military records?

This thread is really more about the Boston Globe and their lie.

Posted by: TexasGal at August 8, 2004 09:15 PM

Simon says:

“Interesting isn’t it that the more this story unfolds the less able the left is to defend sKerry.

The volume of defence has gone way down.”

bananas says:

” This site is a nexus for idiots and the differently sane. It is no longer interesting. ”

Damn,

We lost another one already. I ought to be a pundit ;-)

Posted by: M. Simon at August 8, 2004 09:47 PM

Jatsby,

Kerry could put all this to rest with a blanket release of his service records.

BTW have you worked out a position on Kerry machine gunning animals and burning down villages? Well OK. Maybe just a lot of animals and one village.

That is not so bad is it?

Any way I think Rove put him up to it.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 8, 2004 09:53 PM

TexasGal, thanks very much…you’re right, I’m a latecomer. And the Boston Globe story is an interesting one….doesn’t Ajakk’s post: …”Kranish was then dropped as the author of the forward. Obviously, Amazon.com has just not updated its listing for the author of the forward since the book was changed… ” answer some of that? And as Bananas pointed out, if Thurlow accepted a medal for the same mission then what really is the basis for his (Thurlow’s) criticism? Rassman (and the rest of the crew) are just liars? I agree that the military records would be good to have available…but I think the military records of the respective candidates are among the least important things relevant to the coming election. There are serious issues at hand here that sort of dwarf this, don’t you agree? Forgive me for retreading some of this, I’m trying to catch up.

Posted by: Jatsby at August 8, 2004 09:59 PM

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=pT71Qdp9ba&isbn=1586483145&itm=1

The book is still listed at Barnes & Noble as being authored by Kranish.

In reading the letter from the Attorneys of Swiftvets to the TV stations that have refused to air the SwiftVet Ad, it is clear that the Swift Vets are using Kranishs statements in his own book, John Kerry:By the People That Know Him Best” as proof that Kerry lied about his injuries to get his 3rd. Purple Heart. This would put Kranish in hot water with the Kerry people.

It is Kranish’s previously written words that convict Kerry of lieing. Brinkley, “Tour of Duty”, is also footnoted, which gives two sources to back up the SwiftBoat skippers claim that Kerry was wounded by his own grenade previous to the encounter with Rassman.

This gives Kranish the impitus to challenge Elliot. His entire reputation and a possible Presidential Press Secretaries position is on the line.

The following page contains the full letter from John O’Neill’s law firm to the TV stations. You will have to scroll down the page to the O’Neill Law Firm header:

http://www.vnsfvetakerry.com/see_kerry%27s_shipmates-excellent.htm

James Rassman has been reduced to the status of the Kerry Campaign’s military version of “The Drowned Hamster Story”.

Posted by: ET at August 8, 2004 11:02 PM

I went out to:

http://www.vnsfvetakerry.com/see_kerry%27s_shipmates-excellent.htm

and it’s very interesting indeed. Am going to do some research on this…the charges, founded or not, could clearly be answered with the medical records. I think there are other issues a lot more important than this (and I also believe talk of “treason” is blather) but it’s obvious that there are discrepancies somewhere.

Posted by: Jatsby at August 8, 2004 11:38 PM

The following site called Crushkerry.com has an obvious bias. (www.crushkerry.com)

But, this Posting from them warns us of thiings that are VERY NECESSARY to watch for. They are correct on that.

Dems Plan Assault on Vets

The Democrat National Committee has prepared a full-scale assault against the Vietnam Veterans for Truth to draw their character and veracity into question, according to one anonymous source inside the DNC. The campaign of character assassination is scheduled to coincide with the release of the book Unfit for Command which reveals inconvenient facts for the Kerry campaign.
“We have prepared what we call ‘Brown Books’ that contain damaging military records, personal credit histories, medical histories, psychiatric histories, divorce records, you name it,” our source told us. “We’ve got the goods on the Veterans who oppose Kerry.”

Please click READ MORE …

The “Brown Books” are so called because of their distinctive plain brown covers, which contain no words. Some books have already been delivered to Kerry-friendly reporters. Others are on their way, our source told us. When asked if we could have a copy, our source declined, saying there is a limited number of “Brown Books” and they have been carefully inventoried to control in whose hands the books ended up.

Ultimately the “Brown Books” will end up in the hands of pro-Kerry news agencies and reporters. According to our source, who demanded to remain anonymous for fear of retribution, The New York Times is already on the hook to run a negative series on the Vets, as is the Boston Globe, which is owned by the Times. (Editor’s Note: The Globe has already been caught attempting to attack the veracity of George Elliott, Kerry’s commanding officer in Vietnam.)

In addition, the DNC has deployed a six member team from their press shop whose sole responsibility will be to spin and counter-spin stories about the members of Vietnam Veterans for Truth with pro-Kerry media entities, like the Times.

When asked if this was just another example of John Kerry slandering Vietnam Vets – like he did in 1971 as a member of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War – our source snapped, “No! This is warfare. The only way we’re going to get out of this is to force everyone to question their motives and credibility.”

“If they want to spread rumors and stories about John Kerry, we’ll spread rumors and stories about them. And some of the things they did in Vietnam were a lot worse than what they say John Kerry did,” our source concluded ominously.

Stay tuned. We will keep you posted as this nasty story develops.

Posted by: leaddog2 at August 8, 2004 11:50 PM

By the way… if you have not seen it… this is Barnes & Noble’s Web Site. (Archived by the Drudge Report).

Kranish and the Globe TRY TO CLAIM they are unbiased reporters and then they FABRICATE and WRITE THINGS that George Elliott NEVER SAID.

Kranish also claims he has NO CONNECTION to John Kerry’s campaign. See for yourself as follows:

Can the Kerry/Edwards “Real Deal” succeed? In his introduction, the Boston Globe’s Michael Kranish provides keen insight into what a Kerry/Edwards administration could mean for America’s future.

Accreditation
Michael Kranish has worked for the Boston Globe for more than 20 years, including the last 16 in the newspaper’s Washington Bureau. He is co-author of John F. Kerry: The Complete Biography (PublicAffairs, 2004).

Posted by: leaddog2 at August 9, 2004 12:01 AM

Jatsby,

From the interview I read of Rassmann on CNN, where he tells how he ended up in the water in the first place, it looks to me like the discrepancy about the story is where he ended up in the water due to a hit on Kerry’s boat or if he fell overboard with Kerry accelerated. I can understand that Thurlow got a medal for pulling the men in the 3-boat out of the water after it WAS hit by a mine, but there seems to be a difference of recall about them being also under fire from the bank.

Rassman says they were under fire when he was in the water. Thurlow says they were not. I don’t know, but they both seem to agree that they engaged in immediate fire on the left bank in case there was an ambush. Now, I wonder if the “rounds” that Rassman says he recalls hitting the water around him were actually casing? Is that possible? And he thought they were live rounds?

I can certainly understand the fog of war and the confusion that would come from such an incident, but I find it very unusual that medals were awarded to Thurlow and Kerry from the same incident and the recall of what happened are completely opposite.

I’m also very skeptical that Kerry is the one that filed the after action report on the incident that day. I find it very unusual that Thurlow would not know that Kerry was put in for a medal. And I find it very interesting that Rassmann is the one that submitted Kerry for the medal, which was originally a silver medal and downgraded to a bronze.

The release of the medical records as well as the files that relate to the awarding of the medals would clear all this up. And I have to disagree with you about their importance. Kerry made his Vietnam experiences the lynchpin of his qualifications in time of war and he repeatedly took Bush to task about his ANG service, still does. So Kerry needs to give up his own records and those that support him should be pressing him to do so.

There are very serious issues at stake in this election. Nothing more serious than our survival as a country and the preservation of our way of life.

America doesn’t need a pretender to the throne.

Posted by: TexasGal at August 9, 2004 12:11 AM

TexasGal, thank you for the lucid arguments, particularly the spent casings hitting the water; that would make sense. The questions are good ones, and I agree that the records should become part of the public record because of the importance being placed on Kerry’s military experience in relation to his run for office. I didn’t say they weren’t important, rather that I think there are other issues that are more important overall; that the election be a fair one this time around not being the least of them, to continue your Pretender to the Throne metaphor. I can’t think of a reason for the records not to be released and look forward to seeing them…once the “brown book” season mentioned by leaddog2 starts I’m sure they’ll come out, one way or another. It will certainly be a heated election, with each side claiming plenty of “ammo” to use against the other….almost makes their respective positions on domestic and world issues moot, which I think is a terrible loss to the electoral process.

Posted by: Jatsby at August 9, 2004 12:58 AM

Jatsby,

“Brown Books” is what the Democrat National Committee calls their SMEAR briefings. That is
NOT my language but their name for them.

John Kerry has ABSOLUTELY REFUSED on 3 different occasions to EVER RELEASE his medical records.

He KNOWS WHAT THEY WILL REVEAL. He is DEATHLY AFRAID of exposure.

Posted by: leaddog2 at August 9, 2004 01:08 AM

It is too late for the smear to work.

Because the story is not Kerry’s War Record.

The story is Winter Soldier. Kerry is “Unfit for Command” is #2 at Amazon. #1 is 9/11 report.

Winter Soldier/Dewey Canyon.

Remember this is not a series of attacks. It is a campaign. Calibrated. Set to explode at the proper moment. Each shock building on the last. We are only three or four days into this.

The purpose of the SBVs is to prevent Kerry’s election. They are military men and have been waiting for this oportunity for 30 years. One more time they are called to duty.

Even if Kerry gets elected it is not going to go away.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 9, 2004 01:54 AM

Jatsby,

In Winter Soldier it will be proved that Kerry told lies that smeared the military and the country.

After meeting with representatives of the enemy.

Do you think that will impact what people think of his qualifications?

If all this is true it would appear Kerry is a man without honor. There are a few around. And they are tolerated. They should stay out of politics.

Posted by: M. Simon at August 9, 2004 02:14 AM

The Swift boat Vets had to be prepared for a counter attack by Kerry. That’s one reason I don’t question their honesty. They are doing this with almost no chance of gain and knew going in there would be great personal tribulation. I don’t think these guys are fools. Anybody willing to go through what they are about to go through are as genuine as it gets.

Chads

Posted by: Chads at August 9, 2004 09:22 AM

“This site is a nexus for idiots and the differently sane. It is no longer interesting.”

Why, Dirk? Because when it comes to arguments you can’t come up with one to support your perspective?

BTW - The offer still stands. Send me an email and I’ll give you directions.

The italicized portion Posted by: bananas at August 8, 2004 05:48 PM

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 9, 2004 12:48 PM

Against my better judgement, and enunciating carefully:

I produced a well-sourced argument demonstrating the falsity of the suggestion that there was an absence of GOP dirty tricks in this election. The response was you have no argument or GWB deserves credit for not pressing the red button - would Kerry have done? (hint: of course he would have). Hence my nexus comment. Karl Rove, the gut who learned his trade under Nixon, that paragon of virtue and gentlemanly conduct, and who was sacked by Big Tobacco for being unethical, is complicit in this Swift Boat smear. Either he’s confident GWB’s dodgy skipped medical, grounding and absence from months of drills are not a debilitating factor or he’s anxious about the positive effect of Kerry’s service and decorations. I’m not sure which, but I am sure this is characteristic. If he can “fuck” decorated vets in his own party, he would certainly not hesitate to do it to the opposition.

But you want to talk about TIDES rather than rebut the suggestion the Swift Boat vets are distorting the truth about Kerry’s service because they hate what he did after serving, a hatred freely expressed by many of them and a more difficult argument to make for many reasons. I suppose any comment of mine would be met by the charge that Teresa Kerry is running RPGs to Hezbollah or funding bereaved anti-Bush commies. She is involved with a charitable foundation that dispensed funds to the TIDES Foundation earmarked for certain causes - in this case, Pennsylvania environmental projects. The charge in the article at the centre of the TIDES smear hinges on four words (from memory): “But money is fungible”. Of course, you should be able to supply a well-researched and politely expressed comment explaining the correctness of that assertion. But that I doubt.

Pass was right about the dog thang. It seems TIDES is another of the Pavlovian responses you give - someone mentions Plame, you yap: “Wilson outed her!” despite your tax dollars being spent right now compelling journalists and administration officials to testify. Someone mentions Kerry and you bark: “TIDES!”, ‘cos some WSJ op-ed blowhard has issued some baseless speculation as fact. Truly, you put the canine in completely asinine.

Posted by: bananas at August 10, 2004 02:40 AM

“I produced a well-sourced argument demonstrating the falsity of the suggestion that there was an absence of GOP dirty tricks in this election.”

I suppose you call this well-sourced: “O’Neill, the Nixon goon, has been banging this drum on and off for over three decades.”

” The response was you have no argument or GWB deserves credit for not pressing the red button - would Kerry have done?”

Just what does that mean? Cite ME, puhleeeaze!

“Hence my nexus comment. Karl Rove, the gut who learned his trade under Nixon, that paragon of virtue and gentlemanly conduct, and who was sacked by Big Tobacco for being unethical, is complicit in this Swift Boat smear.”

That’s slanderous, Dirk.

“Either he’s confident GWB’s dodgy skipped medical, grounding and absence from months of drills are not a debilitating factor or he’s anxious about the positive effect of Kerry’s service and decorations.”

Either come up with proof that those assertions are legitimate, or shut up about them. I’d suggest a little concentration on some ‘missing’ medical records of John Kerry would be in order.

“If he can “fuck” decorated vets in his own party, he would certainly not hesitate to do it to the opposition.”

Slander. You actually ought to move to the US and join the Democratic Party. They’d love you.

“But you want to talk about TIDES rather than rebut the suggestion the Swift Boat vets are distorting the truth about Kerry’s service because they hate what he did after serving, a hatred freely expressed by many of them and a more difficult argument to make for many reasons.”

That one is plain nonsense. I mention TIDES because you mention FUNDING sources, as if the SBVs don’t have a right to raise funds in the same manner that the Democrats do! And in this case, the Vets are from both sides of the aisle!

BTW - I don’t hate him, I ain’t a SBV, and I sure as hell won’t support him as a Veteran or otherwise, and it ain’t for what he did - It’s for what he said.

“I suppose any comment of mine would be met by the charge that Teresa Kerry is running RPGs to Hezbollah or funding bereaved anti-Bush commies. She is involved with a charitable foundation that dispensed funds to the TIDES Foundation earmarked for certain causes - in this case, Pennsylvania environmental projects. The charge in the article at the centre of the TIDES smear hinges on four words (from memory): “But money is fungible”. Of course, you should be able to supply a well-researched and politely expressed comment explaining the correctness of that assertion. But that I doubt.”

Don’t play WordGames with me, DIrk. I have the right to question how TIDES spends its funds, as does every US Citizen. And if they are funding anti-Bush causes (which they have), then I say they deserve the criticism. If they are funding Palestinian terror, then I say they deserve some criticism as well.

“Pass was right about the dog thang. It seems TIDES is another of the Pavlovian responses you give - someone mentions Plame, you yap: “Wilson outed her!…”

LOL. I can’t help myself. A Lie remains a lie, and the Truth remains the truth. Never the two can be intertwined. I never mentioned TIDES until you wanted to turn the SBV cause into a SLIMY funded political manuever, and I then mentioned if you were going to spend so much time investigating the Vets, you might want to spend an equal amount looking at THK’s ‘charitable’ causes.

“…despite your tax dollars being spent right now compelling journalists and administration officials to testify.”

That’s correct, DIRK. Those are some of MY tax dollars at work. Needlessly being wasted on a LIAR and (potentially) an unscrupulous Journalist.

“Someone mentions Kerry and you bark: “TIDES!”, ‘cos some WSJ op-ed blowhard has issued some baseless speculation as fact. Truly, you put the canine in completely asinine.”

NO. I DID. NOT. Cite it, or shut up. What the SBVs have provided is eye-witness testimony. Try as you or any other person might, you can’t deny their story because of baseless accustations about their funding sources. TIDES is one story. Senator Kerry would like us all to believe his is a truthful account of his VN service, and that his detractors are nothing more than GOP shills. They are not.

I make no sense of your asinine comment - Sounds to me like you’ve discovered you have no argument - which you don’t.

The italicized portion Posted by: bananas at August 10, 2004 02:40 AM

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at August 10, 2004 08:08 AM

Bananas

Do you have any proof that what the SBVT is saying is distorted? Beleive me, it will be scrutinised very closely.! As for funding. The funding for this group is peanuts compared to moveon.org, Democrat underground and several others. If you can link it in any way to Karl Rove or the Republican party, then good luck, many will try. And Pres Bush has publicly distanced himself from this fight.

And by the way, Kerry could clear all this up by releasing the rest of his records, you know, the ones related to the events in question.!

Also, I don’t see how any of the links you provided seriously undermines the group. It shows an effort coming together under pressure, and changes in the statements don’t change the message, or the facts as related to Kerry.

Chads

Posted by: Chads at August 10, 2004 09:25 AM