I’m sure the local nut-jobs will be along to explain this all away soon…

50 cents says they use the “ridicule technique”.

Posted by: eric at May 18, 2004 03:45 PM

At last, we will hang Hanoi John and his damned lies from the highest rooftops in this land!

Posted by: leaddog2 at May 18, 2004 03:45 PM

Uhh yeah, Kerry is a fake and a coward. Everyone knows it and these qualities will come to the surface and Dubya will get re-elected due to this fellows lack of anything that makes a good president a good president.

Posted by: BallsDeep at May 18, 2004 03:47 PM

I’m still convinced that Kerry got one of his Purple Hearts for leaving his cojones in the Mekong Delta..

Posted by: Gerry Owen at May 18, 2004 04:30 PM

“The Bush Administration’s “Clear Skies Initiative,” announced in 2002, allows 125 percent more sulfur dioxide, 68 percent more nitrogen oxide, and 420 percent more mercury air pollution than existing laws.”

Posted by: x at May 18, 2004 04:59 PM

It did not have to be this way. I too, opposed the war before I went, and after I returned I was no Champion of war. How could anyone be?

Senator Kerry made me feel ashamed to have fought and been bloodied (with NO Purple Heart BTW) for my Country. How could I be proud when he painted us all with this terrible stigma of Murder, Rape, Torture and Cruelty? It mattered not what I said over thirty years ago, because here was this young ex-Naval Officer explaining how we pillaged the countryside. WE DID NOT. I would like to see Senator Kerry take up the NVA flag, join his ex-friends, and march on over to the Wall and post those flags. Then they can hang a few pictures of Mao on the panels where their ‘buddies’ names appear. Let’s see how long this Communist crap lasts.

He did not have to lie. The simple, plain truth would have been just fine. He stooped and slid his way into the gutter of dishonor and disloyalty, and he did all of that knowing full well that there were over 58,000 voices who couldn’t argue for their behavior, or against his lies. We rejoined this society and those of us who were untortured enough by the memories went on to make something of ourselves, raise families, and do our part to make this world a better place to live. I don’t need the likes of Senator Kerry in the White House. I won’t lift my voice to help him out of his difficulties. Not this time. Just my opinion.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at May 18, 2004 05:12 PM

“Difficulties”?? Word of advice, get used to President Kerry, Command n’ Chief.

Posted by: Richardson at May 18, 2004 05:30 PM

“Commander”

Posted by: Richardson at May 18, 2004 05:32 PM

x You ain’t doin’ a whole lot to promote clean air, either. MOF, have you considered shutting off your vent?

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at May 18, 2004 05:32 PM

Richardson, still wrong.
The cute little n with an apostrophe is short for ‘and’.
You probably didn’t realize that it is Commander-IN-Chief.
But don’t feel bad. I’m sure Kerry is clueless too.
Actually I hope Kerry wins, bacause what needs done to wake up dimwits like you can’t be done with someone in the WH with a real plan of action like Bush. Some sacrifices must be made to secure real freedom. And Kerry is just the man to push things over the edge.

Posted by: NitPick at May 18, 2004 06:20 PM

Richardson Cute. The apostrophe, I mean. It won’t help. Since it seems to be beyond Senator Kerry to ‘come clean’, he’s going to have to live with it. He’s had way too many opportunities to right his sinking ship with the Veterans that he disgraced. Perhaps you could whisper in his ear? His moral bankruptcy will probably hinder the message, however.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at May 18, 2004 06:34 PM

There goes the Right Reverend X blowing hot air, exhaling vast amounts of CO2 and H2O, further contributing to “global warming”.

In addition he is adding significant amounts of CH4, another greenhouse gas, through his excessive issuance of bovine excrement.

Posted by: anymouse at May 18, 2004 06:44 PM

I am sure relieved to see that the vets are going to stand up and set the record straight. Myself, I’d like to see Kerry’s ass whipped for saying the things he said, then and now. He has done nothing with his life but insult our veterans and undermine America……..oh yeah, and live like a king. Look who he picks for friends…..Ted Kennedy…….who’d a thunk?

Posted by: Jeff B at May 18, 2004 07:35 PM

// ““The Bush Administration’s “Clear Skies Initiative,” announced in 2002, allows 125 percent more sulfur dioxide, 68 percent more nitrogen oxide, and 420 percent more mercury air pollution than existing laws.”” //

PROVE IT.

Posted by: eric at May 18, 2004 08:47 PM

These brave soldiers don’t seek to diminish Kerry’s four months in Nam. They, and all other US citizens, should shame Kerry for betraying those on the firing lines upon his return. This only to catapult his self-serving political career.

Kerry is a supreme loser.

Posted by: Mike Wiley at May 18, 2004 09:41 PM

Republican Senator McCain, a POW for 8 or 9 years: ‘More then most Kerry earned the right to criticise the war’

Republican veterans revising history: “He encouraged our enemies to rebuild and hang on when they were near defeat, as they were after the Tet Offensive in 1968. “- Talk about your revisionist history. While the Tet offensive had the NVA and VC loosing the battles, it did show that the administration was flat out lying to the american people and claiming that we were winning..

The North Vietnamese were determined to win the war at any cost and no matter how many casualties they suffered. They were a totalitarian society- they didnt need any encouragement from Kerry.

The administration was lying to congress, lying to the American people, and violating the rules of war. And you want to blame Kerry for fighting to stop the slaughter of American soldiers in a war we already knew we couldnt win? Get a life. Get a clue.

Posted by: Loofa at May 18, 2004 10:22 PM

Loofa -

Apparently, you’re having trouble with the distinction between protesting the war, and betraying your fellow soldiers in order to further a political career.

Posted by: eric at May 18, 2004 10:30 PM

Loofa, the ends do not justify the means in this case. He betrayed other Americans through lies and acts bordering on treason. You talk like he just went to a protest and marched… which would have been fine.

The problems we have with Kerry are totally unrelated to whatever you didn’t like about the administration at that time. Kerry’s actions and words were inexcusable in any context.

Posted by: Dalex at May 18, 2004 11:02 PM

Sure. Except he didnt lie. And his acts werent treasonous. Damn that first amendment. And betraying American soldiers? sounds like your talking about the Nixon administration. and the johnson administration. and the Bush administration.

Yes I could see how Kerry’s ‘actions and words’ would be inexcusable- now that youve forgiven Nixon, Johnson et al for getting 58,000 American soldiers killed for nothing. Yes compared to getting so many Americans killed and injured, Kerry’s shocking use of the 1st amendment is certainly shocking.

So, Kerry was lying… Got any proof of that?

Posted by: Loofa at May 18, 2004 11:23 PM

Loofer;

Proof is at wintersoldier.com - read the whole site (it will take a while). And, yes Kerry was lying!

Posted by: Kat Vader at May 19, 2004 12:57 AM

Loofa, again, previous administrations unrelated here. If your argument can’t stand on its own terms or merit, then I don’t care to hear it.

Posted by: Dalex at May 19, 2004 02:18 AM

loofa
He lied up one side and down the other. I’ve analyzed the whole speech (it’s on CSPAN). He said many false things about me and every other Vietnam Vet. He gave the enemy propaganda line by line. He advocated pulling out with no guarantee (other than the word of the North Vietnamese) that we would get our POWs back. He said that millions of Veterans were psychologically damaged by what we supposedly did in Vietnam. He mischaracterized everything about the war.

It’s not surprising that he was spewing North Vietnamese propaganda, since he went to Paris to meet with them before this speech.

You say:Republican veterans revising history: “He encouraged our enemies to rebuild and hang on when they were near defeat, as they were after the Tet Offensive in 1968. “- Talk about your revisionist history. While the Tet offensive had the NVA and VC loosing the battles, it did show that the administration was flat out lying to the american people and claiming that we were winning..

Republicans revising history. That’s hilarious since the information came from the North Vietnamese.

And you mischaracterize the Tet Offensive. It wasn’t just NVA and VC losing battles. It, plus the two related offensives of 1968, destroyed the VC. Not battles lost, but total destruction. The VC was never again a fighting force after that - the forces were all NVA. The US was winning the war.

But the press didn’t report it that way. They said it was a major disaster for the US. That was a self-fulfilling prophecy, since their lies turned it into a disaster, in the US.

And Tet didn’t prove the administration was lying, because we WERE winning. It was a surprise attack (breaking a truce, by the way) because it was such a militarily stipid attack that nobody expected the VC to be so foolish. Giap, the NVA general running the whole war, thought that the South Vietnamese would rise up and join the VC. Of course, that didn’t happen, since they hated the VC (in 1956, communists were allowed to move north, and those who didn’t want to live under communism moved south). After 1968’s catastrophe, Giap was no longer the commander of the war effort, although they left him in place as a figurehead.

Also in Tet the VC showed their true selves, slaughtering 3000 civilians and burying them in mass graves. Not accidental casualties, but people form a pre-prepared list, taken out to the kliling fields and murdered.

3 Years later John Kerry stated that if the North took over the south (which he was advocating), only about 3000 people would die. Since he had to know that 3000 died just in the one month occupation of Hue, he had to know that this number was ridiculously low.

He did all of this while an officer in the United States Naval Reserve.

I joined the Navy 2 days after Kerry. I was at Cam Rahn bay 2 months before he had is first “purple heart” there. It was about the safest place on earth. It had a big beach where they sent people for R&R. The crew that was with Kerry when he got his “wound” said that there was no enemy action, Kerry just fired his M-79 grenade launcher at rocks that were too close - apparently to see what would happen. And he found out - if you are too close, shrapnel gets you. So he got a bandaid scratch, which the doctor AND his CO refused to give him a purple heart for. But he ultimately got a purple heart for that.

A fellow officer on the river recently told a military historian that he and fellow officers, who wanted to get rid of Kerry because he was trigger happy (killing civilians in a free fire zone without determrining if they were danger) and wouldn’t follow orders. So they “rigged the system” - which means they apparently filed the purple heart papers, because then he could be shipped out.

You might also be interested to know that he volunteered for what we called a “ticket punching” assignment, not heavy combat. When he volunteered for Swift Boats, they were doing coastal patrol where they outgunned anything they came across, and hence had a relatively save combat assignment. Unfortunately for Kerry, two weeks after he got a boat, the strategy changed and they were assigned the dangerous riverine patrol job. He got out of that as quickly as he could - he wasn’t interested in real combat where he might actually die, so he was in there only 3 1/2 months before he boogied. His replacement commander managed to take the same boat and did his full tour (a year), dodging rockets that Kerry should have been dodging except he was shipped out to be an Admiral’s Aide in New York. Later that man debated Kerry about the war. He was recently slandered by the Kerry Campaign as a “Nixon shill.” But he was actually the man who filled the job Kerry bugged out on.

There’s plenty more about Kerry that smells to high heaven. As one who joined the Navy at essentially the same time as him, I was very suspicious of his published biography since there was a two year gap (1970-1972) in his reported time of membership in the Navy, and he had gotten the Boston Globe to say he got an honorable discharge in 1970.

Guess what! When he had to publish his service record, it turned out that he was an officer in the reserve the whole time and didn’t get out until 1978. But when he published his service record he also pulled the dates from his biography on the web site.

This guys is a real piece of work. His comrades in the VVAW decided he was using them to climb to political power - i.e. an opportunist. He lied about the date he got out of VVAW to cover up his attendance at the meeting where assassinating Senators was discussed, but both the FBI and other members have stated that he was there (3 months after he supposedly resigned). Now he says he can’t remember. Can’t remember a discussion of assassinating Senators where one member had already put together the list and the hit team? Yeah, right.

In fact, tens of thousands were executed and hundreds of thousands were sent to “re-education camps” - most of whom never returned. They were enticed to go to the camps by being told to bring one week’s worth of supplies, implying that they would get a week of indoctrination and then they could go home. But they didn’t go home - they died.

THe evidence on Kerry is clear. Most of it is in his own words. Kerry is a minor war hero (a better term is decorated Veteran… not highly decorated, but decorated). But Benedict Arnold was a major war hero, and look what he did.

Posted by: John Moore (Useful Fools) at May 19, 2004 04:12 AM

Dang it, John! I was just about to get into my shower and I can’t find the Loofa…

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at May 19, 2004 07:42 AM

X, love those percentages. Too bad that the total amount of mercury allowed is still too low to have any demonstratable heath effect. Same with all the others. Environmental regualtions have less to do with science and public health and more to do with the anti-industry agenda of tree huggers. Besides, I’m much more concerned about the dangers of Di-hydrogen monoxide, LOL.

Posted by: Brian at May 19, 2004 07:44 AM

What is it with Dems and the truth? They just can’t seem to grasp the concept. William Jefferson Clinton, has there ever been a bigger liar? Kerry is transparent. His self serving actions make me want to just spit. He is so…so… French!

Posted by: Elvis at May 19, 2004 02:01 PM

// “Except he didnt lie.” // - Posted by Loofa

Except… He DID lie.

Posted by: eric at May 19, 2004 02:08 PM

So the Prez race is coming down to a choice between Bush and Kerry. While Kerry was doing the military shenanigans claimed on this thread, what was Bush doing?

Bush and his mission from God have gotten all Americans into an unwinnable situation. His Iraq excursion is full of deceit and shifting causes. He has no plan to bring things to closure. And he campaigned (lied) on the basis of not supporting nation-building.

If we have a choice…I’ll take Kerry. Being President is another Bush fantasy financed by his heritage that he has wasted. He doesn’t have a clue, especially about military issues. Puppet of people who have never been to war except for the-now-used Colon Bowel.

Scream all you want about Kerry. When compared to Boy George (especially on military matters), he is a boy in a man’s world. George took on this war to prove that he isn’t really a cheerleader wuss. He has succeeded in proving that he is a cheerleader wuss loser. Bush lost the war in Iraq. Anybody who supports this buffoon is throwing loyal, obedient American military lives away. Anybody who loves Bush hates America and life.

Posted by: buttonpusher at May 19, 2004 04:41 PM

” Anybody who loves Bush hates America and life.” - Posted by ButtonPusher

Logical Fallacy - Self Sealing Statement.

Perhaps when you get older and have a chance to go to college, you’ll have the opportunity to learn about such things.

In the meantine, you don’t have to worry about it anyway. It’s not as if you can vote.

Posted by: eric at May 19, 2004 04:59 PM

eric
I’m so offended. Is this the best insult you can hurl?

Intended to be logical fallacy and self sealing…also intended to draw parallels with and to poke fun at the ReThugLicans (see also Tom DeLay) who equate Bush criticism with treason.

It tickles me that you have this idea that going to college is going to help me with Phil 101. Will it also help me learn how to nuance? Or do I have to join the Young Republicans to do that? Oh, oh, if I join, do I get a brown shirt?

Posted by: buttonsgalore at May 19, 2004 06:09 PM

LostButtons Why is it that your Stash contains so many buttons and so few pearls? Could it be that your choice of beverages runs to the likes of MadDog? So much misplaced angst…

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at May 19, 2004 06:44 PM

The new medal named in honor of John Kerry is called the “Purple Owie.”
It is worn directly over the wound in question. After use, it is rolled
up and thrown over the nearest fence……

Posted by: hound at May 20, 2004 11:36 AM

Damn Right Cap’n DOC

You’re pissed because Kerry said things that you think made you and other Vietnam Vets look bad. In my opinion, he didn’t—what he said was an indictment of leadership, not soldiers. You and other “victims” seek to damage Kerry for revenge, including twisting his words as necessary to justify yourselves.

I’m pissed because this sorry excuse for a draft dodger has led a life of squandering his privilege, including a shared privilege as an American. And now Boy George has lied and deceived along with his chicken s4!t advisors to the effect of damaging my (and your) country. Aren’t you a little irritated?

How was it for you, when you were getting shot at in the defense of another mutton-headed war, to think that there were people back home who were using their heritage, pulling strings, etc. to get out of their duty? Weren’t you a little pissed?

Aren’t you even a little pissed that this numskull is conducting a war so ineptly? That grunts are being blamed when higher-ups are complicit? If not, I wonder about your motivations.

With me, you have used up your victim status that you use to blame Kerry. He spoke out against a foolish war then. He’s wisely keeping his yap shut now to let the Divinely Guided and Never Wrong idiots do themselves in. Give ‘em enough rope… I appreciate that you defended the country, but I’m unwilling to be deceived with your “victim” mantle.

I just can’t believe that you and your fellow “victims” would be so driven by vengeance to overlook and excuse what currently passes for President of the United States—my country. You bet I’m pissed, angst-ridden…some f*&^ing idiot ran my country into the ditch. All in the name of God. Disgusting!!!! And remarkable that you and your ilk would buy it.

As for pearls…they are not to be cast before swine. So far, I’ve seen no indication that it’s time to trot them out.

P.S. Just found out that Chalabi was raided…the embezzler got us into this morass and was taking $300K of our money monthly. Aren’t you a little irritated? Your Boy and his hot crap advisors got suckered. Vote Bush…if he’s running…I bet that the patriotic Republicans will find someone who actually stands for something (other than themselves) to step in when Georgie decides to quit. Wussie cheerleader loser! Only fights when someone else can get hurt…or killed. Despicable!

Posted by: buttonpusher at May 20, 2004 02:06 PM

I find it amusing buttonpusher that you call President Bush a liar while telling such brazen lies and slanders yourself.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at May 20, 2004 03:28 PM

Robin Roberts

Please point out where anything I posted as fact is at odds with what is known to be true. If you are saying that my opinions are incorrect factually, then what you really meant to say is that you disagree and that I wrote some pretty harsh words.

Brazen lies and slander? I don’t think so. If your position is that a person can’t say bad things about the CinC, then you inhabit an alternate universe that only recognizes some of the U.S Constitution. To state one’s opinions requires no basis in fact. However, assertions such as those I made can be substantiated. If you are unaware of the background for some of the opinionated claims made in my posts, you may want to do some checking around. But my hunch is that you know exactly what is being alluded to.

On the other hand, if my posts brought some amusement to you, I’m all for it. Glad to be of service.

Posted by: buttonbutton at May 20, 2004 05:59 PM

buttonpusher

You’re pissed because Kerry said things that you think made you and other Vietnam Vets look bad. In my opinion, he didn’t—what he said was an indictment of leadership, not soldiers. You and other “victims” seek to damage Kerry for revenge, including twisting his words as necessary to justify yourselves.

Didn’t Kerry say that you had to be a Vet to have an opinion? Or was it one of his minions. In any case, I don’t think you do. But… it helps on certain subjects, like this one…

I am a Vietnam Vet. And I know exactly what Kerry said and have analyzed it in depth, and in the context of his other actions, such as meeting with the enemy before that speech.

Do you suppose they coordinated their propaganda? It sure looks like it from what he said.

I haven’t personally suffered as a result of what he said, although many other Vets have. Kerry caused myths that kept many vets from getting jobs. Burkette, who wrote the book “Stolen Valor,” did so after he discovered that mentioning his Vietnam Veteran status led many people to advise him not to do so, and produced a number of strange reactions from others. Like me, he had no idea that he was a pariah for his service.

But Burkette decided to investigate. The result is that book. It only has a few pages on Kerry, but they are damning.

My animus towards Kerry more fundamental and not personal: As Admiral, former POW, and Senator Jeremiah Denton said recently [bold emphasis added]:

Knowing that I served in the U.S. Senate with John Kerry and that, like him, I am a veteran of the Vietnam War, many people have asked me what I think of him, particularly now that he’s the apparent presidential nominee of the Democratic Party.

When Kerry joined me in the Senate, I already knew about his record of defamatory remarks and behavior criticizing U.S. policy in Vietnam and the conduct of our military personnel there. I had learned in North Vietnamese prisons how much harm such statements caused.

/i>To me, his remarks and behavior amounted to giving aid and comfort to our Vietnamese and Soviet enemies. So I was not surprised when his subsequent overall voting pattern in the Senate was consistently detrimental to our national security.

Now, what do you have to say to Admiral Denton? Is he lying? Is he deluded? Does he maybe know a lot more about Kerry than you? After all, he served with him. Or JoeDo you know enough about the constitution to recognize that his words constitute a direct accusation of treason against Kerry?

Or how about former POW Joe Crecca (whose letter I verified by personally contacting him):

It is inescapable to think of the so-called peace movement and the antiwar demonstrators without also thinking how many fewer names there would now be engraved into the black granite of the Vietnam Wall if these same people had supported our efforts instead of trying to derail them. After all, fighting against a political regime that up to that time had murdered over a hundred million people couldn’t have been all bad. But, John F. Kerry thought and acted differently. How many more names on the wall can he take credit for?

After the war ended, some of the war protesters hung on to their antiwar postures for a while. Some of them realized the errors of their ways almost immediately while for others it took twenty to twenty-five years.

But some, like John F. Kerry have not realized there was anything wrong with what he did. Instead, he hopes we will see him as a courageous Vietnam veteran. I do not. He hopes we will admire his bravery. I do not. I remember him more for his misdeeds upon his return from Vietnam.

I hope all will reconsider their support for Senator Kerry in light of his actions which were so detrimental to our Vietnam combat soldiers, sailors and airmen many of whom are not here today to tell you themselves.

Thank you for considering my views. Please share what I have written with your fellow vets…. Joe Crecca

Vietnam POW

22NOV66-18FEB73

……………………………………….

Moving on…the lies that he told (and most of what he said in that testimony consisted of lies - eloquent lies (because of his ghost writer – Walinski – who of course denies it) - but lies under oath while a sworn Naval officer) hurt our national reputation. They are still believed by idiots in this country and too many uninformed people in other countries. If you don’t think they were damaging, explain why it was that the North Vietnamese used tapes of Kerry’s speech to try to break the will of our POWs?

Kerry committed all of these actions while still a Naval Officer (which he tried to cover up)

I’m pissed because this sorry excuse for a draft dodger has led a life of squandering his privilege, including a shared privilege as an American. And now Boy George has lied and deceived along with his chicken s4!t advisors to the effect of damaging my (and your) country. Aren’t you a little irritated?

Yeah, I pissed at asshats like you who don’t have a concept of what George Bush did. As I have mentioned before, but you probably missed, anyone who straps on a Century series fighter is not a coward, and is putting his life in danger for the country. Furthermore, he is not a draft dodger when he volunteers for two years of dangerous active duty, followed by more years of part time actual military missions, in an outfit that had a detachment fighting in Vietnam at the time he joined.

Do you think that TANG was a country club? Do you have any idea what it takes to become a jet pilot? I am especially pissed when I hear this bullshit because my best friend, John Kelley, was killed doing what Bush was doing – flying a century series fighter in the Air National Guard.

And I was a Naval Aviator, and unlike you, I know what I’m talking about. I know how crazy we all felt the fighter jocks were. I know how many died. So the vile slander you put in the paragraph above puts you below whale-sh*t at the bottom of the ocean in my book. You aren’t debating, you are slandering. And just like Kerry, your slander has collateral damage. I don’t like being reminded of John Kelley’s death (or Michael Merz’s or others I lost in the service) by asshats like you,

If anyone is squandering a privilege, it is you, who are spreading vile slander about an American whose boots you could never fill, an American who put his life at risk. If one were to believe that Bush had so much privilege, then why didn’t he use it to avoid the service? Answer that, you ignorant twit.

Who the hell are you to call anyone chickent s4!t?

Tell us – how many times and in what ways have you risked your life for your country.

Explain to us how Kerry, after he was kicked out of Vietnam, managed to end up with a job so sweet that he was stationed near home and spent his weekends, while on active duty flying Robert Kennedy’s speech writer to anti-war rallies? One might consider that, among other things, a strong indicator of access to powerful people – what we in the military called PI.

Oh, and then tell us how many of Kerry’s advisors served.

And then explain why it is necessary to serve in order to have a sensible opinion on war? Having served, starting one day after Kerry, I know where my experience makes a difference and where it doesn’t. You don’t have a clue about how that works, and you don’t want to. One experience I have that is relevant is having been at Cam Rahn bay two months before Kerry was “wounded” there. There weren’t any Charlie around there. Hell, it was used as an R&R base, with a nice beach! Sure, I saw some artillery fire hitting the mountains in the distance, but Cam Rahn was so safe that even during the Tet offensive, only a couple of rockets were shot at it, and the personnel I knew went up on top of the bunkers to watch the show. This is why both the doctor who treated his scratch and his CO refused to authorize a purple heart – because they knew from the situation, and from the statements of his crew that were there at the time, that Charlie didn’t hurt Kerry, Kerry hurt himself by firing an M-79 at rocks that were too close. What an idiot! You support this twit?

How was it for you, when you were getting shot at in the defense of another mutton-headed war, to think that there were people back home who were using their heritage, pulling strings, etc. to get out of their duty? Weren’t you a little pissed?

You are an arrogant little sh*t, aren’t you. I bet you’ve never put on a flight suit or a parachute or a helmet. I would be surprised if you have ever served your country in any way. How dare you lecture those of us who volunteered for that war, knowing full well what we were fighting for, when you have yet to have figured it out.

You see, I was in East Germany shortly before I joined up. I saw communism up close and personal, and it was very, very ugly. I remember the Cuban missile crisis, and my father (who knew something about nuclear weapons) showing me where to hide if the bombs went off. I listened to communist propaganda from Radio Moscow, Radio Havana, Radio Hanoi and Radio Peking. I knew what we were dealing with. We now know that Fidel Castro begged Khrushchev to launch nuclear missiles from Cuba against the united state. Yet your postings indicate that even at this late date, after so much information has come out showing how much worse communism was than even I knew, since “The Black Book of Communism” was published by French intellectuals (not exactly known for their fondness for America nor their hatred of communism) in 1967, showing that communist governments killed 100,000,000 of their own people, that you don’t understand why we fought in Vietnam and haven’t a clue why we are in Iraq.

Explain why Kerry said there would be, if we left Vietnam, only 3000 Vietnamese executions, when in fact over 1,000,000 Vietnamese fled in boats, hundreds of thousands died in “re-education camps” and tens of thousands were shot. Kerry made that statement even knowing that in Tet ’68, when the VC captured Hue, they had a hit list, and went through the town rounding up civilians on the list, took them out to the killing fields, and murdered at least 3000 of them. And that was in just one city where they didn’t have full control of it and were under attack.

I don’t think you have a clue what happened in Vietnam. I don’t think you have a clue what is going on in the war on terror. In fact, I don’t think you have a clue at all.

Aren’t you even a little pissed that this numskull is conducting a war so ineptly? That grunts are being blamed when higher-ups are complicit? If not, I wonder about your motivations.

That doesn’t even deserve an answer, especially when it comes form somebody so mentally and morally deficient as yourself.

Posted by: John Moore (Useful Fools) at May 20, 2004 08:50 PM

Well, I am not a vet, but my dad is. I spend some time at the VFW with him and his friends.

I think the idea that most vets don’t appreciate Kerry is dead wrong. I would say most of the combat vets at the VFW are Vietnam vets and more than half are Republicans. I would say 90% speak very very well of Kerry. I respect those Vets who don’t like his positions, but I would say most I have met generally have a huge amount of respect for his combat service. Kerrysaw a lot of heavy fire in Vietnam .

I would aslo say that mostofo the Vietnam vets I know also changed their mind and saw the war as a a problem in its late years too.

I mean this group going after Kerry was created just to go after kerry. To cite it as representative is just wishful thinking.

I am voting for Bush for other reasons, but this mud against Kerry is at best ineffectual and at worst carries some blowback.

Posted by: CC at May 20, 2004 09:03 PM

CC

Maybe VFW folks are an odd sample.

The group you are talking about was created to demand that Kerry answer some questions. I have spoken to the leader of the group, who had a distinguished career in the Navy including being a SEAL in ‘Nam. He is clear on his intent: a non-partisan rally about Kerry’s lies about him and me and every other Veteran. Personally, I would go farther because I think that while some veterans suffered mightily, the country suffered even more in the long run.

Did you read the references on my previous post? Did you look at what the POWs said. This is not a mud campaign. It is in no way associated with the Republican Party. It is a grass roots campaign from Veterans who, as they become aware of what Kerry did (I didn’t know until this year, and I researched it carefully because I don’t want to be pushing lies, such as the one phoney photo of Kerry with Fonda - btw, there is another photo that is real, but the faked photo allowed the Kerry campaign to cause everyone to believe that no valid photo exists).

This isn’t mud slinging. This is Vietnam Veterans who feel very strongly about Kerry’s actions after his tour of duty. Sure, there are interesting reports about how he got his ribbons, and the report I posted about the officer who claimed that he and others had arranged for Kerry to get sent home. I would suggest that such reports (which are very, very unusual in Veterans circles) are not mud, but information that people choosing the Commander In Chief should be able to judge for themselves.

And there enough reports of Kerry having been too trigger happy to simply dismiss them as “mud.”

It may indeed come back to hurt us. The press is so biased that we have no idea what will happen.

But I and many other Vietnam Veterans feel that we have a duty to try to inform the country about the many lies that Kerry said about us. Some of us also feel that we have a duty to try to inform the country how Kerry contributed to the negative image of the United States with his lies. This year is our chance to set the story straight - the only one we will ever have.

If calling someone who smears his country in time of war with lies a liar is throwing mud, then I guess we just don’t have the right to tell people what actually happened.

The amazing thing is that this information is all publicly available. CSPAN ran Kerry’s speech to the Senate and has a transcript on their site. Anyone can go there and read the whole thing, and realize that

Kerry’s testimony has the following ideas in it:

1) The war is invalid. We can’t fight communism anywhere.

2) The military has a policy of tolerating the most extreme of atrocities, and those take place every day and are known to all levels of command.

3) Vietnam Veterans are almost all pschologically damaged as a result of committing these atrocities (if he means by “millions” more than 2 million, ALL Vietnam Veterans are, by his definition, messed up):

The country doesn’t know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.

4) The war was racist. We used weapons that we wouldn’t use against Europeans (false - we planned to use nuclear weapons, for goodness sake, against a Soviet invasion):

We fought using weapons against “oriental human beings,” with quotation marks around that. We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater or let us say a non-third-world people theater,

Oriental human beings? I had never heard that term before. The weapons charge is nonsense.,

5) We committed war crimes such as using .50 caliber machine guns against people (not a war crime), free fire zones (not a war crime) and Harassment and Interdiction fire (not a war crime). He said:

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of Orientals.

Notice the suggestion of racism. It runs all through his speech. His interpretation of free fire zones is one reason his superiors and peers wanted to get rid of him - because he did indeed shoot at anything that moved - against orders. It is a cowardly thing to do - the way to be safest is to shoot at anything that moves, rather than check to see if it is a civilian target (in which that shooting is a war crime). In other words, he gives a false meaning of Free Fire zones.

I don’t have time to fnish writing up the list of lies. It is way too long.

I would sincerely and strongly urge anyone who thinks we are just throwing mud at Kerry to read this, which is composed of his speech with comments about specific issues intertwined. I wrote it.

It also has a link to the raw transcript on CSPAN, so you can verify with a non-partisan source that none of this is made up or internet rumours or “mud.”

I am totally sincere in my analysis of and opposition to Kerry. If another person were running, I wouldn’t be spending all this time. I’d probably vote Bush anyway, but I wouldn’t be deep into the scrutiny of his opponent. I’d just be leading my life as normal, which doesn’t involve all of this work.

So again, if you are seriously questioning whether this is just “mud” or a smear campaign, please read the link and decide for yourself. And if you think my analysis is wrong, please pop in here and express your specific criticisms so we can discuss them.

Posted by: John Moore at May 20, 2004 10:34 PM

John Moore this guy ButtonSpewage ain’t even a US Citizen, so I wouldn’t waste my breath on his rants.

CC - “Kerry saw a lot of heavy fire in Vietnam.” He did not. He saw 4 months. He would like you to think he saw a lot of ‘heavy fire’, but he didn’t. Reread John’s response to you. I might add, I am a Vietnam Vet as well. I am not a monster. I belong to no organized group opposing Senator Kerry. I stand on my own words and my own experiences.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at May 21, 2004 11:01 AM

Wow!
Now…not even a U.S. citizen. Thanks Cap’n DOC…if you live anywhere near Wisconsin, you might consider running for McCarthy’s seat.

Maybe you self-appointed arbiters of truth, justice and the Constitution can spell out what someone should do who is opposed to an illegal or ill-advised war. Or are you like the current crop of termite-killing, big-talking draft-dodgers like DeLay?…viz. If you say that Bush is incompetent, then you are aiding and abetting the enemy. Talk about consistent propaganda. Are you being fed stories by the RNC?

I’ll address only one of your rants John Moore You write that Kerry said “The war is invalid. We can?t fight communism anywhere.” Kerry didn’t say this. He said, “…we cannot fight communism all over the world…” I don’t know how many other claims you make that are similarly skewed, so as to give a completely erroneous sense of his remarks. You completely disregard the fundamental gist of his comments—that there is a failure of leadership.

I took nothing away from Bush’s piloting. You made that up and then beat me up for it. With the addition of victim mentality…that I made you think of your friend who died flying the same plane. Low. Now-discredited Colon Bowel said that it made him angry that so many advantaged people got preferential treatment. And you completely disregard the essence of my claim that Bush has squandered my country’s goodwill, consistent with his pattern of privilege squandering.

And since when does a person have to be a veteran and a Vietnam Veteran to have an opinion or to state it? What this boils down to is you and countless others (including myself) lost close friends and family on an ill-conceived war…just like today.

Where is your vitriol for LBJ? Nixon? the colonial French? Churchill for going back on his word to the Vietnamese? for the numskulls who get us into these fiascos? Where is your anger for George Wuss who needed to do Sodom to prove that he wasn’t really only a cheerleader?

Look no further than how the Iraq fiasco is unfolding…payback is a mother. Lying and cheating have a way of coming back to haunt the perps.

For George’s next big adventure, maybe he can take a space ride to Mars. My bet is that he quits before November. And he’ll have a damn good excuse. Maybe God will whisper in his ear.

Posted by: WhaddaButton at May 21, 2004 01:33 PM

ButtonDouble Yup. If you’re anywhere near Montana you might be from Calgary.

Maybe you should save your spit for the the next paraphrase that comes around. KERRY LIED. UNDER OATH. Get it? Presented ‘testimony’ from ‘veterans’ who were not only not Vietnam veterans, but also had never even been in the military. And he knew it. Discussed assassinating US Congressmen. Seven of them. Want their names? Keep your buttons in a safe place, or at least do your lip. It’s loose.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at May 22, 2004 07:47 AM

by law, kerry admitted to commiting war crimes. He should be tried.

If he now says he lied under oath, then he should be charged with purgry, and a whole host of other charges.

kerry met with the enemy while still technicaly a member of the forces. That again is a crime.

Kerry belongs in prison, not the white house.

Kerry now says bush isn’t doing enough to reduce oil dependancy, yet he keeps voting against the energy bills, 3 years runing.

Flip flop flip flip what’s that? the sound of Kerry walking down the hall.

Posted by: Fat Guy at May 22, 2004 09:54 AM

Large and Growly Bear…Get it? Hit your keyboard harder, so that we can tell how REALLY ANGRY you are. Juvenile

If any of your allegations about Kerry are true, why hasn’t one single reputable source done one thing about it? Stop listening to Big Fat Oxycontin-Chomping Idiot, Dittoes. MouthRushMore…Dish the slander and whine. Victims. Foaming at the mouth like the McCain and Cleland lying attack dogs.

Still nothing about why you would support a draft-dodging chickenhawk who co-opted Colon Bowel…who wrote of being angry when fair-haired boys got out of Vietnam.

Only two possible explanations…
1. You are still suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome…in which case, Bush’s VA cuts are going to be a problem.
2. You are upper income recipients of Bush’s squanderous excess, and are fighting like crazy to keep your privileges.

If 1, please shelve the sympathy game…you’re not victims. People didn’t go for Vietnam…Lyndon lied and Dick cheated…that has nothing to do with you. Crying now that people didn’t welcome you with open arms is stale.

Either you were drafted and had no choice but to go. Or you volunteered and made your own choice to go. Anyone who would sneer and demean you is goofy. If it bothers you, try not to think about it.

Fat Guy absent any official judicial or military finding, your whining is transparent. If JK did this stuff, then he should suffer the consequences. If no one will bring legal action, he walks. That’s the American way. You may not like it, but that doesn’t matter. So all you’re left with is smear, which is also the American way. Ordinary people can see through it. And the louder you get, the more they turn the volume down. Something credible…put up or…

If you want to get into a flip/flop argument, your Boy George loses. This is the RNC attack dog strategy for Kerry and people see through this too. This flip/flop theme is the RNCs approach to showing that George Wuss is resolute, a leader, talks to God, doesn’t make mistakes. Great campaign strategy, especially when seemingly intelligent people who can access the internet and make Command posts buy it. Although they might also be suckers. Or similar wannabee tough guys.

Posted by: cantfindtheButtOn at May 22, 2004 12:41 PM

Buttons, Etc. - cantfindtheButton

You still can’t find it. Do you even know where the border is?

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at May 22, 2004 01:50 PM

Well Button? Kerry admitted War Crimes…………where is your outrage? Where is your demands that he should be in prison? Ohh I get it, your just a anti-war, anti-Bush hack.

John Kerry could cut up people in small pieces and serve them in a Pie. As long as he has a purple heart and silver star, IT IS PERFECTLY FINE. In fact you encourage him to!!

How utterly sickening.

Posted by: MikeC at May 24, 2004 12:16 PM

Are the Vietnam Vets march against Kerry still on schedule or was this a false statement?

Posted by: Benny McDaniel at June 3, 2004 09:25 AM

Still on schedule for Sept 12.

See http://kerrylied.com/ for details.

Posted by: John Moore (Useful Fools) at June 3, 2004 11:57 AM

By the way, why would you think this is a false statement? I gave a source and a link to the organization.

So far, I know of no false statements against Kerry regarding Vietnam except for one photograph that had Jane Fonda added, which Kerry and the tame press immediately used to discredit the other photograph where Jane Fonda and Kerry really were present.

If you care about the facts on John Kerry’s pro-defeat activities during his time as a Naval Reserve officer after 1970, read www.wintersoldier.com , where they are being collected..

Posted by: John Moore (Useful Fools) at June 3, 2004 12:37 PM