Kerry | Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry

This is a duplicate of the original post from the nikita demosthenes website.

Per the Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry website:

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As a national leader of VVAW [Vietnam Veterans Against the War], Kerry campaigned against the effort of the United States to contain the spread of Communism. He used the blood of servicemen still in the field for his own political advancement by claiming that their blood was being shed unnecessarily or in vain.

Under Kerry’s leadership, VVAW members mocked the uniform of United States soldiers by wearing tattered fatigues marked with pro-communist graffiti. They dishonored America by marching in demonstrations under the flag of the Viet Cong enemy.

- - - - - - -

All of these photos are from the Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry website.

Pictured above, April 1971, VVAW demonstration - Washington, D.C.

On April 23, 1971, Kerry led members of VVAW in a protest during which they threw their medals and ribbons over a fence in front of the U.S. Capitol.

VVAW supported demonstration, Washington Spring Offensive, April - May 1971

Via the intrepid Curmudgeonly & Skeptical.

Posted by nikita demosthenes at February 4, 2004 11:25 AM | TrackBack

I say right on. The Vietnam War was a travesty.

Posted by: Rori at February 4, 2004 12:35 PM

Rori:

Are you indicating that the Vietnam War was “a travesty” because it sought to contain communist expansion by the USSR?

Were you in favor of communist expansion by the USSR?

Posted by: nikita demosthenes at February 4, 2004 12:41 PM

Kerry’s been on my ShortList for quite some time. How about, say 35 years? He is a coward who is swayed by the political winds. He says ‘No’, but then says he really didn’t mean ‘No’. A little over a year ago, he said ‘Yes’, but now claims he really didn’t mean ‘Yes’. Yup. I want him in the Oval Office for damn sure… NOT. Sullies the memory of my dead brothers, and wants me to vote for him? No freakin’ way. EVER.

Rori. You are right. It was a Travesty. But if you agree with the methods and rationale of Sen. Kerry, you are sadly mistaken as to the nature of the travesty. It was bad enough that our Leadership had no resolve - but to come home to what we came home to, including the likes of this man doing what he did? He’s a loser.

Posted by: Cap'n DOC at February 4, 2004 01:06 PM

I love how this VVAW is glorified by the media they love to taut Kerry’s involvement in it! He was li beral scum then & is liberal scum now!

Posted by: Doug Bush at February 4, 2004 01:10 PM

A Medal winner, yes, but also a
Proven Liar.

The Picture above shows him
trowing his Medals away.

He has those same Medals on
display in his Senate office.

Hanoi Jane and Hanoi Kerry
are equal liars.

Posted by: leaddog2 at February 4, 2004 01:14 PM

A typo above… should be

“throwing”. Also, a post on
a different thread yesterday
shows he was 83% and 87%
more liberal than all other
Senators in the 2 years
mentioned.

He is also an atheist, or so
he claims.

Posted by: leaddog2 at February 4, 2004 01:18 PM

The Communist News Network the other day said, “New Poll Shows Kerry Leading Bush”. The next day, I see the same headline on the front page of some trash newspaper. Yeah, RIGHT! How fu-king funny. The liberal media has no limits. One thing this war has done, it has exposed just how embedded the anit_Americans are in our media. They need to be investigated. I want to know who it is that is trying to call the shots and dictate the future for America. They are a ‘Pied Piper’ trying to lead this country straight to hell. Stop and think……who has the most to gain, if Bush were defeated? If you think it’s anyone in America, you’re sadly mistaken……..or just a typical liberal.

You saw a few of these as-holes at work during half time. MTV has gone from what started out to be a good thing…….to something that lays somewhere below the lowest layer of sh-t at the sewage plant.

Posted by: Jeff B at February 4, 2004 01:28 PM

He’s an american and he can do whatever he wants to.
I figure he earned it if he went over to veitnam and actually put in some service.
So what if he is an atheist? That’s his choice.

Posted by: gijoe at February 4, 2004 01:30 PM

In the picture of the guy throwing his medals over the fence, look just to the right of his hand. See the girl in the white dress? Now look 2 people to the right of her. Why, that looks like ol’ Kerry himself.

Posted by: eye n the sky at February 4, 2004 01:35 PM

‘gijoe’ said, “He’s an american and he can do whatever he wants to.
I figure he earned it if he went over to veitnam and actually put in some service.
So what if he is an atheist? That’s his choice.”

Couldn’t agree with you more…….but he sure as fu-k isn’t someone we want running this country or representing us.

Posted by: Jeff B at February 4, 2004 01:42 PM

*****Thousands have been killed or imprisoned or have just “disappeared.” The Montagnards lost one-half of their adult male population fighting for the United States, and without them, there might be thousands more American names on that somber black granite wall at the Vietnam memorial.***

An older friend of mine (vet), who was in Operation Phoenix and spent more time in Cambodia and Viet Nam, than most, told me about the Montagnards. He verifies that they were extremely helpful to the American troops. He tells me of being on the verge of being wiped out, and these Montagnards, would just come out of ‘nowhere’ and save their asses. He tells me that when we pulled out, they were just left behind to be wiped out by the communists. This brings strong emotions from him still to this day. They must have really been something. The kind people you’d really like to meet.

Unlike Kerry, Fonda, etc.

Posted by: Jeff B at February 4, 2004 02:41 PM

Kerry voted in favor of the current U.S. military activity in Iraq - then once our troops were on the ground, he voted AGAINST funding for their operations.

In other words, he cast his vote to put our soldiers in harm’s way, then he refused to allow them the equipment they need to do the job and return home alive and sound.

And he claims to care about our military men and women?

What an insufferable asshole!

I’ve lived in Mass. for many years, and believe me, John Kerry is ammoral. He doesn’t believe in anything or anybody except himself, and he’ll do or say whatever he can get away with to get what he personally wants out of life. I

I doub’t the man has ever had a genuine human emotion for anyone but himself in his whole life.

Posted by: jay at February 4, 2004 03:04 PM

Someone straighten me out: I’m reading that Kerry won the Silver Star for perfrmaing a coup de grace on an enemy soldier who’d been wounded by a .50 cal mg. In other words, for shooting a wounded enemy in the head instead of taking him prisoner.

Is that right, or did I miss something…?

Posted by: CERDIP at February 4, 2004 03:16 PM

Unbelievable comments.

John Kerry chose to go fight in Viet Nam unlike the present occupant of the White House. He was a hero, he won those medals, and what he did with them is his business.

I think everyone on this site should fess up. Did you or did you not enlist in the military and go to Viet Nam or any of the other conflicts this country has entered.

I suspect we have lots of Chickenhawks complaining about John Kerry. It will be interesting to see Kerry run against the draft dodger in the White House.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 03:33 PM

Unbelievable comments.

John Kerry chose to go fight in Viet Nam unlike the present occupant of the White House. He was a hero, he won those medals, and what he did with them is his business.

I think everyone on this site should fess up. Did you or did you not enlist in the military and go to Viet Nam or any of the other conflicts this country has entered.

I suspect we have lots of Chickenhawks complaining about John Kerry. It will be interesting to see Kerry run against the draft dodger in the White House.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 03:33 PM

So, Rori evidently supports Kerry in this.

Which means he supports Kerry’s pro-communist bent, despite communism being against everything this country was built on.

And Rori evidently then also support what the North did to the South. Slaughter of the Montagnards, reeducation camps, work camps, etc.

Bet he thinks Stalin was a swell guy too.

Posted by: Spade at February 4, 2004 03:34 PM

During the drive to Baghdad, our military traveled farther and faster and took more enemy territory than any other army in the history of the world, while inflicting a bare minimum of civilian casualties, and taking a regrettable but realatively minimal amount of casualties on our own side.

We liberated 25 million people from the most blood-encrusted dictator or our day, and thought there’s still a lot of work to do, we have brought the beginnings of a democracy and an open market economy to that country for the first time in it’s long history.

And how did Kerry describe the operation in Rolling Stone magazine?

“We fucked it up.”

Vote for John Kerry?

NO F-CKING WAY!

Posted by: jasper at February 4, 2004 03:35 PM

hkeith, you apparently missed the news topic on this site about Bush’s war record. Read it.

And Kerry may have gone to Vietnam and served there. But then he abandoned his crew, claiming the three wound rule when he had been barely hit. And then came home and stabbed the folks serving there in the back, and then tried to kill any search for POWs and MIAs still there (Special note, the North was still holding French POWs well into the Vietnam War).

In other words, any service Kerry did there was erased by him through his actions when he got home.

Posted by: Spade at February 4, 2004 03:37 PM

hkieth,

Draft-dodger?

You just threw all your credability right out the window, Dude.

Bush was a full honorable discharge.

Why don’t you go sign up for the Dean campaign, you’ll find a lot of like minded folks over there, and thankfully, no one pays any attention to them either.

BTW, how do you jusitfy Kerry’s vote for sending our troops to Iraq, then trying to de-fund them once they were in harm’s way?

Posted by: jay at February 4, 2004 03:42 PM

hkieth,

I didn’t serve in Vietnam, but my father did, and when he returned home, he didnt’ go around encouraging folks to spit on our other returning troops and call them baby-killers - unlike Kerry and his filthy, pampered, pot-headed buddies did.

I signed up for the Army in 1979 and served for three years in the Signal Corps, and though I never saw combat, if I had been ordered to go to war, I WOULD HAVE DONE SO WITHOUT HESITATION AND WITHOUT QUESTION.

We have an all voluntary military, they are legally and morally bound to follow the orders of their commanding officers and their Commander In Chief - and I think it’s absolutly disgusting that Kennedy, Kerry and the like are trying to undermine their current mission and their morale.

Posted by: jasper at February 4, 2004 03:54 PM

By “Montagnards” do you mean Hmong? I went to school that was 40% Hmong, which was an asian sub-culture from China that helped very well in Vietnam. They’ve been kicked from country to country and then they helped us, then we left most of them in refugee camps.

Actually this year is the last year we are bringing Hmong over to the US; We will have completed the migration.

They mostly live either in California or in the Twin Cities area(where I lived all my life).

From what I’ve heard, the Hmong have been fighting for their survival in Asia for thousands of years. They beat back the Chinese, the Thai and Lao governments, and finally came to Thailand refugee camps. Now next to all are in the US.

Bush’s war record: He did not go AWOL.

http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/003162.html

Read the whole thing. He was in a reserve unit currently fighting in Vietnam, and he apparently was a great pilot. Sure, he probably had prefferential treatment, but by no means did he avoid his chance to fight.

Posted by: Greg at February 4, 2004 03:56 PM

Draft dodger means that he used his family’s influence to fly safely (when he showed up; when it was the right kind of plane) in the States when other people were dying in Viet Nam. Until the record is clear about his missing time (other than the R screeching), he should be considered as having been AWOL.

You apparently weren’t around when people were going and others weren’t because they were well connected. They were called draft dodgers. And some of draft dodgers actually had the courage to blatantly refuse the VN game, rathering than gaming the system (viz. Bush, Cheney)

And then do some research on the justifications for the VN war. Same BS as Iraq. Lies.

Tough talking chicken hawks (talk tough now; chickens during Vietnam) are sending Americans into a nation-building exercise (which GWB said he would never do) that was poorly planned. The U.S. is in a war doing the right thing, but we were lied to about the justification. Wake up! Don’t believe everything you hear on Fox News.

as far as paying attention…there’s not a lot of that happening, is there? Just listen to Rush or Sean and follow their guidance.

Smooth move to put Kerry and Fonda in the same sentence. Not even close. What did you do during the VN war?

Posted by: carl at February 4, 2004 03:58 PM

Carl,

“Bush is a liar”
“Bush was AWOL”
“‘real’ draft-dodgers were courageous but the Bush variety of draft dodging was cowardly”
“Vietnam wasn’t about stopping communism, it was about lies”
“Iraq isn’t about freedom and security and democracy, it’s about lies”
“you idiots who don’t agree with me have been brainwashed by FOX - you’re not enlightened enough to think things through on your own.”

Dude, go sign up for the Dean campaign. That way, we can ignore all of you at the same time.

Posted by: jay at February 4, 2004 04:09 PM

awesome! kerry earns a lot of points in my book for that. being against the vietnam war doesn’t make you pro-communist, by the way, just like being against gulf war 2 doesn’t make you pro-terrorist.

vietnam was a fuckup. every single veteran i know says, time and time again, that it was a fuckup, and that we should have never gone into the conflict.

Posted by: x at February 4, 2004 04:10 PM

Clinton was a Draft Dodger in
England, not Bush!

My Oldest brother was a U.S.
Marine in Nam. I was in the
3rd grade, but I still listen
to him and his buddies. None
support Kerry and that Hanoi
Kerry reference came from one
of their meetings last Friday.

Several went on to full time
military careers. They have
their own reasons for comparing
Traitors like Fonda to Kerry.
It will come up often in the
months ahead. No military
man likes a back-stabber
when they are still fighting.

That was John Kerry.

Posted by: leaddog2 at February 4, 2004 04:13 PM

X,

Does waving a communist flag on the Mall in Washington while cheering as others burn an American flag make you a communist, or just confused?

Posted by: jay at February 4, 2004 04:16 PM

X,

You’re right.

Being against the current operation in Iraq doesn’t make you pro-terrorist, just pro-Saddam.

Posted by: jasper at February 4, 2004 04:19 PM

So Leaddog,

You have never served in the military, right? You guys with the tough talk.

Fact, John Kerry went to Viet Nam and was decorated for bravery.

Fact, George Bush went to Alabama, ran a political campaign (his candidate lost), and never, never, showed up for his Air National Guard service.

And he has the nerve to dress up like a soldier and prance around on the deck of an air carrier.

Chickenhawks really should be ashamed.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 04:23 PM

On another note, every generation of
my family has served honorably since
the War of 1812, most in the Corps,
some Navy. I have one Uncle, a quiet
man, who survived the first wave at
IWO-JIMA. Yes, he had many Medals,
including the Medal of Honor.

I had cousins in Viet Nam and Gulf
War I. The youngest generation
is now serving in Iraq.

There are thousands like me all
across this nation. Most of us
are totally sickened by the likes
of Howard Dean. We also KNOW
John Kerry by his actions and
his record.

It will not stand when Freedom
calls. I make no comments on
his military service. His actions
after that when others were still
fighting WILL HAVE repercussions
today.

He is NOT FIT to be President.
The Democrats themselves have
decided that about Crazy Dennis
and Howard the Deaniac, or was
that maniac.

Posted by: leaddog2 at February 4, 2004 04:29 PM

hkeith

Where’s my answer? Your man Kerry, who cares so very much about our servicemen and women, voted to send them to Iraq, then he turned around and voted against funding their operations.

I guess he wanted them to all get their asses stomped and return home with their tails between their legs.

It seem to me that Kerry’s trying to do to our troops in Iraq exactly what he claims the government did to him in Southeast Asia.

How do you justify that, hkeith?

Posted by: jay at February 4, 2004 04:31 PM

HKeith:

You and I have no point of agreement
that I can see.

U.S. Marine Corps - Honorable Discharge
1982

Posted by: leaddog2 at February 4, 2004 04:35 PM

Bush has not been candid about his absences from
the Guard… Records unearthed by the [Boston] Globe showed that Bush was
removed from flight status in August 1972 for failing to take his
annual flight physical. Bush aides said he didn’t take the physical because
his personal physician was in Houston, and he was in Alabama working on
a political campaign. But that explanation didn’t hold up because
flight physicals must be administered by certified Air Force flight
surgeons, and Bush easily could have found one at Maxwell Air Force Base in
Montgomery, Ala., where he was living. Kerry’s candidacy was elevated when
a former Green Beret whose life he saved showed up on the campaign
trail in Iowa to attest to Kerry’s courage.

So Leaddog I guess you never were in the military…sort of like the current occupant of the White House…

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 04:39 PM

I served 4 years. Did you?
I doubt it from what you write.

Posted by: leaddog2 at February 4, 2004 04:44 PM

Four years where, if you don’t mind me asking. Why do you attack someone’s patriotism simply because they don’t agree with you? Yes, I served, in Viet Nam. I wasn’t wounded like John Kerry, but I was there unlike Mr. Bush.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 04:57 PM

Four years where, if you don’t mind me asking. Why do you attack someone’s patriotism simply because they don’t agree with you? Yes, I served, in Viet Nam. I wasn’t wounded like John Kerry, but I was there unlike Mr. Bush.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 04:57 PM

jasper:

well said.

why isn’t the mainstream media talking about Kerry’s use of the F-bomb? (how presidential).

If Bush dropped the F-bomb, Rather, Jennings, et al. would be talking about it for weeks - and probably longer.

Posted by: nikita demosthenes at February 4, 2004 05:11 PM

x:

you made the same statement as Rori but, again, without a rationale.

how was Vietnam a “fuck-up”?

Wasn’t it important to contain the expansion of communism under the USSR?

Are you saying the tactics of the war were wrong or the war itself?

Posted by: nikita demosthenes at February 4, 2004 05:15 PM

Somewhere in every biography of John Kerry is a photo of Kerry sailing with JFK. Since Kerry was born in 1943, Kerry he had to have been a teenager when the photo was taken. Few of us get to go sailing with the president of the United States, even fewer of us get proximity to a president when we are below voting age. So Kerry was politically well-connected at a very early age. I think at ever stage of his career those around him were made to know of his political connections and aspirations.

Making captain is based on “what you know,” making admiral brings in the factor of “who you know.” Admirals pick future admirals subject to the approval of Congress. Admirals are graded on their ability to get results. Admiral frequently have to work with Congress to achieve those results. In view of the foregoing, it is reasonable to surmise that senior naval officers are politically sensitive. It is part of their job and it is to be expected.

I believe Kerry used JFK as a model for his political aspirations. It was hard to not know that JFK had been an officer in the Navy and had won a Silver Star in PT boats. He may have also known that Lyndon Johnson had been a naval officer and had also won a Silver Star (albeit under very questionable circumstances). So Kerry went off to Yale, was graduated, and subsequently received a naval commission in 1966. He does some time on USS Gridley and then volunteers for swift boats (the closest thing to PT boats available) and gets them as a JG. This was a plum. It was a very calculated plum on the part of Kerry. How much did his political connections have to play is hard to determine. I don’t believe it would have been easy to get a swiftboat O-in-C billet in Vietnam with a reserve commission with only a year and a half’s service, though I could be wrong. I submit that all other things being equal, a politically well-connected officer gets the benefit of the doubt if a senior officer is somewhere in the process.

Kerry then sees action in Vietnam where he is awarded the Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat “V,” and three Purple Hearts. The citations are not readily available. I would expect to see the Silver Star citation on an official Kerry website, but I can’t find it. Purple Hearts are awarded for injuries that result from enemy action. If a rocket goes overhead and you step back and trip over a tentpeg and you are bruised, you can technically be awarded a Purple Heart. Kerry won three and was still walking around so we can assume the wounds were superficial. A Bronze Star with Combat “V” was a standard end of tour award for a naval O-in-C at the end of a combat tour. No problem there. The Silver Star may be legitimate, I simply don’t know. Riverine duty was hazardous. You’d cruise along the rivers which were confined and see stakes in the river banks. These were aiming stakes for VC rockets. You’d also see signs “tu dia” which indicated the riverbanks were boobytrapped. Riverine duty was undoubtedly hazardous.

Switching back to the States, JFK is no longer on the scope, but RFK is. JFK was strongly anti-communist and after Krushchev makes his “Wars of National Liberation” speech in 1961, JFK is prepared to engage the communists in each of these Wars of National Liberation…including Vietnam. RFK has an anti-war change of heart in 1966, but doesn’t really get vocal until 1968 as he campaigns for a Presidential nomination. Kerry is overseas still pursuing a JFK-like heroic experience for his political resume. I suspect while he is doing this in RVN he is starting to get word that the Kennedy take on the war has changed. The Kerry star is hitched to the Kennedy wagon. Well, Kerry has committed himself, but he must realize he is now out of step.

Kerry gets his Silver Star award and three Purple Hearts and requests repatriation immediately. To me that sounds strange.

He gets discharged and the next thing we know he is tossing his medals away before the press. For the next decade is hair is long and we see him in bits and pieces of military attire. Then he is suddenly a prosecutor in Massachusetts.

I can’t say whether Kerry was a hero or not. I think I can say I believe he was a hero in a very calculated way. I can also say that because he was well-connected politically, when the matter of awards recognition came up (a process always involving senior officers), he was very likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

In 1972 my active duty naval unit was told to down size 30 men. Of the 30 jettisoned most were moved about the fleet in San Diego. One however, from the great state of Massachusetts was assigned to shore duty in Australia. We were told that a senator from Massachusetts had taken an interest in the matter.

Here are write ups on John Kerry’s personal medals drawn from Brinkley’s book on Kerry, “Tour of Duty” which describes Kerry’s four months in Vietnam:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/681zueln.asp?pg=1

Kerry’s Bronze Star was awarded for an action that has lately been well-publicized—the rescue of Army Lieutenant Jim Rassman, who earlier this year, unbidden, phoned Kerry’s presidential campaign days before the Iowa caucuses and volunteered to help. Rassman believes, and the citation makes clear, that he owes his life to Kerry and his crew. When a fleet of Swift boats came under heavy fire from AK-47s and rocket launchers on shore, several of the boats were blown to a shambles, and Rassman was thrown overboard. He swam through sniper fire coming from both banks of the river, but there was nowhere to go. Kerry turned his boat and headed into the barrage, toward the floundering Rassman. Though his own right arm had already been hit by shrapnel, Kerry left his pilothouse and pulled Rasmussen out of the water as his crew returned a hail of gun and rocket fire.

HIS SILVER STAR was also a consequence of Kerry’s aggressiveness. Heading through the mangrove swamps one morning, Kerry’s boat was ambushed by automatic weapons and small arms, as well as a rocket launcher, coming from somewhere on shore. Instead of turning the boat back from the line of fire, which would have exposed other crews to danger, Kerry ordered his helmsman to steer the Swift straight to the point on shore from which the gunfire was blazing. He beached the boat, grabbed his M-16, jumped off, and headed into the jungle after the scattering Viet Cong. When one of them turned around and aimed his B-40 rocket launcher, Kerry shot and killed him. The ensuing firefights took eight more Viet Cong lives and prevented further ambushes.

“I was shocked when Kerry beached the boat,” another crewman tells Brinkley. “He saved the day and our lives.”

“What Kerry did was against the rules,” another said. “We had been taught that we weren’t supposed to become jungle fighters. But thank god he did.”
**********
The Bronze Star sounds plausible. The Silver Star sounds strange to me. My recollection was that Swift boats were coastal, not riverine. A Swift boat skipper beaches his boat, grabs an M-16 and personally dispatches a VC rocket crew singlehanded leaving his boat exposed on the beach? What if the VC had more than one rocket team?

Kerry was a showboat from the start. I think he may not hold up to scrutiny for long. There is some indication he was making anti-war statements before he joined the Navy. The Navy hero category was simply something he was after for his resume.

Posted by: LImpet at February 4, 2004 05:26 PM

For HKeith’s benefit.

One tour Ca Mau, An Xuyen, RVN.

One tour Bagram, Kandahar, AFG (and elsewhere).

No chickenhawk here. Just a hawk grown old in the webgear.

The guys most impressed by Kerry are the lefties who find physical courage so rare among them that Kerry’s alleged credentials sweep them off their feet out of sheer novelty.

Posted by: Limpet at February 4, 2004 05:33 PM

Kerry and I were both on the USS Gridley. We both were transferred to Vietnam as volunteers. He punched his ticket and bailed out after about 4 months with that 3 purple heart loophole. In his case, the wounds amounted to a total of “a couple” of lost days. My brother was there the same time as I. He was wounded 3 times too. Medevaced all three times. My brother and I stayed for our full tours. I’d have rather come back in a coffin than walk out on my shipmates. I guess he had more important things to do.

Posted by: Bill at February 4, 2004 06:06 PM

Limpet,

You turn your wrath on someone who actually served and say nothing about the guy who never showed up….amazing what mental gyrations people will go to to critize a real war hero and praise someone that used family connections not only to avoid real military service but to attain the highest office in the land.

I don’t know as much as you obviously do about military citations. But, I do know the W didn’t get any.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 06:08 PM

Limpet,

You turn your wrath on someone who actually served and say nothing about the guy who never showed up….amazing what mental gyrations people will go to to critize a real war hero and praise someone that used family connections not only to avoid real military service but to attain the highest office in the land.

I don’t know as much as you obviously do about military citations. But, I do know the W didn’t get any.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 06:08 PM

i fail to see how getting our asses handed to us by the nva was “important to contain the expansion of communism under the USSR”, nikita.

history shows us that marxist communism is impossible to attain because of human nature. it also shows us that communism was responsible for its own downfall; the ussr overspent on their military and that, combined with a few bad years of agricultural production and corruption at the local government level, wound up causing the fall of communism.

vietnam didn’t do shit except to demonstrate to the world how a force with superior firepower and technology could be defeated by guerilla tactics and asymmetrical warfare.

i’m honestly surprised that there’s anyone left who doesn’t believe that the vietnam conflict, both in theory and execution, was a complete and utter waste of life, resources, and time.

Posted by: x at February 4, 2004 06:17 PM

Another cockfight…beautiful.

Another instance of my medals are bigger than yours….it seems.

Kerry has better military credentials than Bush that should be an undisputed fact.

What is disputable is how many actual Vietnam vets dislike Kerry. My guess would be not too many owing to the fact that our government royaly screwed tons of them. Vietnam was a mistake. We jumped the gun then just like we did in Iraq.

Vietnam and Iraq are good lessons in avoiding disasters due to our own paranoia. We must back up our paranoia with hard facts. Gulf of Tonkin vs. WMDs. Which are now the infamous “program related activities.” You want flailing you got flailing with the preceding verbal diahrea of unaccountability. Program related activities? Who the hell does he think we are?

Sure our military went through Iraq like a hot knife through butter and liberated people etc..etc.. But that was pretty much a foregone conclusion anyway. Were we there to liberate people? Nation Building for the sake of paranoia is economic suicide. Vietnam was large scale, Iraq is small scale.

Bush talks about revisionist history a lot. I always revert back to Truman myself. W has a homework assignment. He needs to go to the American people and apologize for sending 500+ soldiers to their deaths. He needs to call each family and tell them he blew the call. He thought he saw a threat with what he had but he got bluffed big time. And yes, the blasted W defenders point to other countries assessments. Fact is W led the charge, he is the sinner of the saint based on the actuality of events.

What have those soldiers died for? A free Iraq. I guarantee you many of them did not take their oath to free Iraq. They vowed to DEFEND AMERICA. What were we defending in Iraq? Defending against a clueless dictators malfeasance ..his DESIRE? to possess WMDs.. Saddam could shit in one hand and desire in the other and obviously still could not get his hands on anything. We attacked something that did not have to go. Result: Dead GIs. Reason: ? Lead Architect: Bush Administration Apology: Of course not. Investivation: Results come after election year :)

A real president would acknowledge their err. A while ago, we had real ones. Unfortunately now we are blessed with this boy of a man who does not want to admit that he has shit his pants. The Bush record is a history of unaccountability.

For an inkling of the scale of this ineptitude look at the current budget forecasts which fail to account for any Iraq or Afghanistan spending… Bush is trying to play the American people in an election year. I personally and roughly 53% of the population are not that stupid and are going to send him back to his mom’s house.

Even REPUBLICANS are better than this. Bush is not a Republican he is a boyish mind trapped in a mans body. Let neocons forever burn in hell and long live real Republicans (fiscally conservative) and democrats.

Bush needs to go..he is some kind of deformed mutant ninja turtle of a real republican and has betrayed the military and dismantled the American economy with his ridiculous faith-based fiscal policy. Where are the jobs? Economic indicators dont mean squat w/o the jobs. We have waited long enough for the lag just like the WMDs.

Posted by: what2 at February 4, 2004 06:28 PM

I see hkeith STILL hasn’t read that article that was posted on THIS VERY SITE about Bush’s military service. Either he’s ignoring it or is bad at reading.

x, Kerry was out there waving communist flags. Probably hoping for more body bags to help make his point like the folks over at DU do now.

I find it rather disturbing that Kerry decided to ticket punch out on a technicality and leave his shipmates, like Bill notes. I personally think Kerry is a wannabe JFK, and once he had his shiny medal and his boat record, he was gone because it wasn’t politically necissary. Although I find it more disgusting that he would then turn around and accuse his comrades of war crimes.

And I also find that he used a picture mocking the Marines on Iwo Jima for his book cover pretty telling as well. And about stonewalling on POWs and MIAs.

At the very best he’s a disgusting totally political animal. At least with Bush I know where he stands, but Kerry will blow where the next poll takes him (just like Teddy Kennedy, oddly enough). At worst he’s a traitor.

Posted by: Spade at February 4, 2004 07:01 PM

Spade,

I big article on Bush’s military career. What career?

His Commanding Officer has been quoted as saying, “he never showed up.” And, I assume it was because he would have had to pee in a bottle and couldn’t pass the drug test.

John Kerry is a totally political animal. What politican isn’t. But, a traitor. Yikes, you guys live in a bubble. John Kerry showed up in Viet Nam, George Bush did not.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 07:17 PM

hkeith,

if heroism is the guide to vote, did you vote for Bush I in 88 and 92, Dole in ‘96?

If saying Bush didn’t serve in the face of proof after proof to the contrary is the best you can do, good luck.

What2, again, thanks for the clulessness. Please post your name at the top of a post for easier skipping.

JeffB, nice to see you posting again.

Posted by: jones at February 4, 2004 07:25 PM

There is no “proof after proof to the contrary” of Bush’s military record. What we get is Republican screeching about how bad people are to raise the question.

Your arch enemy Clinton actually published his draft-dodging letters. Where are Bush’s records? Tut-tutting and finger-waving don’t work here. Was he AWOL or not? Where’s the beef? Show us the records.

JONES...it might work better to deal with some of the opinions in WHAT2’s message than outright dismissal. He has some things to say that the American people are saying about the current admin.

No I’m not a Deaniac. I’m not a Kerry fanatic. I’m a Republican from Wyoming who is disgusted by amateurism/elitism masquerading as conservatism.

Posted by: carl at February 4, 2004 07:41 PM

carl,

Thats just it.. The freakin neocons are trying to make us look like we are the crazy ones. While on every national news channel all you can see is Bush Administration Officials stuttering like retards about how they dont know what happened in Iraq.

Stuttering and asking for more time. That is what has become of the Republican party. More time for WMDs…more time for the sudden tsunami of 3 million jobs just to replace what we lost….

They will get no more time. Because they have a RECORD of piss poor performance that even the most uneducated American can see.

Stuttering Republicans are all I see on the news every day. Right now I am watching a stuttering Secretary of State on PBS. Stuttering Republicans begging for more time like the winos they so despise is not a winning strategy for November.

Even you guys deserve better.

Posted by: what2 at February 4, 2004 08:31 PM

Jesus Christ hkeith, just read the fucking article you incompetant shill. And I didn’t say “military career”, I said “military service”. Learn to read and comprehend.

http://www.command-post.org/oped/2_archives/010134.html

Posted by: Spade at February 4, 2004 08:39 PM

What2, again, thanks for the clulessness. Please post your name at the top of a post for easier skipping.
***************************************************************
Jones, I hope you enjoyed my posts of mass destruction related hiding activities….

BTW…I am starting to get tired of hearing about your sorry administration on the news. Please tell them to sack up and just apologize or admit they effed it up. I dont want my children to start stuttering from the overexposure.

Bububuhbubh sh in 2004. Amairkah needs strong ledershup.

Posted by: what2 at February 4, 2004 08:40 PM

spade, spade, spade

please settle down, you can’t think and rage at the same time. it’s easy to see through your baseless insults. As a poster wrote…learn to read and comprehend.

“At least with Bush I know where he stands.” No question about that Harken Oil/who’s your daddy? Where’s the budget? Run it into the ground Get rich quick.

Texas Guv/who’s your daddy? Where’s the budget? Run it into the ground. Contributors and fat cats get rich.

POTUS/who’s your daddy? Where’s the budget? Compare Bush’s 2001 speech to a joint session of Congress about his budget with his actual performance. He’s going to use a little of the surplus, just a little. (He said it, i’m not making this up.) Hey George it’s gone. Contributors and fat cats get rich. He’s lying to you. Think for yourself instead of swallowing everything that Rove puts out.

By the way, with all the screaming about Kerry not supporting our Iraqi forces, did you notice that George hasn’t budgeted anything for them? What’s that about? Is that a lie? Or does he not know any better?

Notice…no insults to you spade, just facts that can be backed up.

Posted by: carl at February 4, 2004 09:18 PM

Spade,

Military Career or Service….either way, he never showed up…..and I do read, I read the reports on his missing service time during the Viet Nam War when many of my friends were being shot at…..he is a nice, affable frat boy who does great photo ops….”pick up the plastic turkey George and smile”….he never showed up…..the drug test would have gotten him.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 09:40 PM

Limpet, Limpet, Limpet

(Draft-dodging experts on the duties of military service and persons who think Vietnam was for nothing, ignore)

I know what Bush can do. He can win wars. He just won two — Iraq and Afghanistan — in record time. If he didn’t wear military authority correctly in his younger days he’s grown into things. Bush has been strong enough to buck the press, cocktail party opinion and do what needed to be done (contrast Clinton and his token missiles).

Kerry is the very opposite. He started on the right track then let himself get sidetrack by the press and cocktail party opinion. In fact they are what he uses in place of brains. I would trust Kerry to make a hard decision. He’d just follow the Zogby polls.

Kerry has done just the opposite.

Posted by: Limpet at February 4, 2004 09:54 PM

CORRECTION: I would NOT trust him to make hard decisions. No gravitas, gang.

Posted by: Limpet at February 4, 2004 09:57 PM

He just won two — Iraq and Afghanistan
***************************************
Excuse me…he hasnt won squat. Both are still in turmoil. We have no idea what will happen long term in either country. I would hardly call that a win when juxtaposed with the amount of lives and cash we have laid down.

Furthermore dont kid yourself. Both of the above are third world powers. You act like we are not the strongest military in the world.

Posted by: what2 at February 4, 2004 10:08 PM

hkeith,

This has become counter-productive
and a waste of time. I DO NOT see
the same thing you do in Bush’s
records.

However, I do know what a real hero
is. My Uncle hit the beach at IWO.
He was one of the few who survived.

John Kerry does not compare to him.

BTW, I served in the Judge Advocate
General’s Corp, NOT in a combat role,
but my brother did.

Posted by: leaddog2 at February 4, 2004 10:11 PM

Why would you compare your uncle’s war record in WW II with John Kerry’s record in Viet Nam. Is this a case of my Dad can beat up your Dad? I am just as sure that your uncle was a hero as John Kerry is…..that’s the point, when they had to, they both went to war.

If you don’t see the same things that I do in Bush, then perhaps you should look at it a little closer (and I am not trying to be snotty here, I am serious). When the Viet Nam war was raging some chose to go, some to go to jail, some to Canada, and some to the National Guard.

The very least George Bush could have done is finish his service in the National Guard. He did not! There is no evidence that he showed up in Alabama for service in the Air National Guard except to campaign for a Senate candidate.

By all accounts, and I have met him several times, he is a nice man. But he is no war hero. John Kerry is that.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 10:57 PM

Oh, Limpet

When a war is won the killing stops. Our troops get killed everyday. Over 500 of them and our leader hasn’t gone to one funeral. He does, however, go to lots of fundraisers, Camp David, and his ranch.

And to show his great respect for veterans he cut veteran benefits in his budget.

Posted by: hkeith at February 4, 2004 11:06 PM

This is priceless. Someone contravenes military doctrine to beach a “coastal, not riverine” boat through a hail of gun and rocket fire to save several lives, yet is branded a calculating traitor, while another person chooses not to serve and is an American hero. Keep doing this. I can restitch my sides.

Posted by: dirk strom at February 4, 2004 11:07 PM

Beaching a “coastal, not riverine” vessel indicates he was showboating. He was looking to contrive a medal and go home. Coastal boats don’t have the right bottoms for easy beaching. He virtually gave the VC the boat (if there had really been any significant VC in the area.)

The Navy only has limited troops trained for light infantry engagements doing assaults across beaches into jungles. Kerry wasn’t one of them. I was/am.

Posted by: Limpet at February 5, 2004 06:57 AM

Limpet,

Bush didn’t win anything (ignoring that neither Iraq nor Afghanistan are “Mission Accomplished” as your comments imply). He stayed in the safety of the States. Military folks who believe in America are there doing the dirty work. Bush is here putting on a good show. As an earlier post mentioned, where is the apology to the 500+ families who have lost a dedicated loved one? Where is the admission that a bad decision may have been made? All we get is sanctimony, self righteousness and Bush infallibility.

Are you one of those people who keeps arguing even when you realize you’re wrong? The Bush administration is. By the way, General Powell is in a pickle about this…could we be looking at “The Price of Loyalty - The Sequel” by General Powell and other self respecting members of this admin?

Posted by: carl at February 5, 2004 05:48 PM

Ho Ho

“if there had really been any significant VC in the area.”

How many VC were in Texas? Significant, or otherwise. Or were they all in Alabama? Might explain why Bush never showed up there.

Posted by: dirk strom at February 5, 2004 10:17 PM

Limpet Congradulations! It is about time someone set these “idiots” straight concerning the “riverboats” and “beaching” them. Only an “idiot” would “try” that and another “idiot” to believe an intelligent person would leave a “safe” boat to enter a jungle alone where an unknown number of enemy may be waiting.
Far be it from me to say Kerry is a liar and bribed his crew with medals but he is a POLITICIAN!

Bougainville, Guam, Iwo, Korea and Vietnam vet.

Posted by: Rudy at March 7, 2004 02:08 PM

Dear Veterans,

My name is Ronald Nichols. I am looking for my dad Wesley Alan Jones. He is very active in the VA, VFW, DAV, and the Moose Lodge. His service in Nam was from 66-67.

Have him email me at rknichols@ualr.edu

Posted by: Ronald Keith Nichols at March 26, 2004 06:26 PM

Hi guys Kerry sucks Bush rocks

Posted by: Amit at May 6, 2004 06:15 AM

Veitnam War Statistics(HTTP://www.jmu.edu/oriention/faculty/frp_guilde/stats.shtml)58,181 soldiers killed in veitnam from 1959 to 1975 16 years. Mainly whites 21 years of age and under and from the middle and lower classes. The veitnam war or conflit wasn’t not lead by the military,but by the government. After 12 years of american family’s losing there sons and dauthers with no end in site. The mood of america became one of love and peace not war and without wonder. Kerry proudly served his country,but like america at the time wanted a end to the war that seems endless. I believe we should be thankfull that Kerry talked to president Nixon about ending the war.

Fred C. Ikle, undersecretary of defense during the Reagan administration and author of “Every War Must End,” a 1971 book detailing the astonishing record of failures to conduct long-range and comprehensive planning, which war planners like to call a “grand strategy. Where is the grand strategy in Iraq? From my veiw there wasn’t much planning for going in much less for getting out. Who said we are not in the bussiness of nation building?

Thank You,
RJ

Posted by: Randall Joe at May 18, 2004 07:40 AM