whats wrong with guys with confederate flag stickers on their pickup trucks?

southern pride my friend.

Posted by: gijoe at November 4, 2003 04:33 PM

What do you think the confederate flag symbolizes? It’s not considered by the rest of the nation to be a symbol of modern progress and social harmony, that’s for sure.

Posted by: Dalex at November 4, 2003 05:21 PM

there are much better ways to express pride in the south and its culture. flying the rebel flag past the 1880’s is just childish… except for, maybe, ole’ miss games on saturday.

Posted by: TN at November 4, 2003 09:55 PM

Is it just possible that the Confederate does not symbolize what the elite have decided it does?

Personally, I fly a rebel flag from the 1770’s. You may find it childish- how in the world do you think that changes what it symbolizes for me?

Posted by: Fly It High at November 5, 2003 11:57 AM

Dalex brings up a good point, “What does the confederate flag symbolize?”

The South’s fight to retain slavery??? Isn’t that what the civil war was all about?

Posted by: Jeff B at November 5, 2003 03:49 PM

No, that’s not all the civil war was about. One problem is that too many non-Southerners either don’t understand this or won’t admit it. Believe it or not, there are white Southerners who are proud of the Confederacy for taking a stand against northern oppression while simultaneously being anti-slavery. And, just like other symbols, the Confederate flag does indeed symbolize something other than slavery to many people. Do you think the American flag symbolizes the same thing to everyone?

Posted by: jr at November 5, 2003 04:00 PM

Haha. No, the war wasn’t just about slavery. If anyone took somewhat of an advanced American history class, they’d understand that.
“The war over slavery” is the easy way out of a complex explanation.

The North didn’t need slavery like the South did, with their industrialized economy. The war was lots about economy, and less about slavery. It was about disagreement on what should be done in the US as a country.

So, saying the Confederate Flag symbolizes slavery would be quite simplistic and a generalization.

Having a confederate flag does not automatically mean pro-slavery.

Posted by: g at November 5, 2003 04:38 PM

The War Between the States managed to smear a group of very principled men (and their legislatures) in their disagreement with the Federal government over the rights of individual states vs. the power of the Federal system. Yes, slavery was the trigger, yes, the states in question supported slavery, but the war was much more than that.

Lincoln himself said he would have retained slavery if it would have meant the preservation of the Union. The Emancipation Proclamation came well into the war with the hope that such a statement would inspire southern slaves to revolt and cause problems for the south’s rear. (Parenthetically, thousands of northern troops of Irish extract deserted after the EP - they saw no reason to fight for rights they themselves did not enjoy in the racist north.)

The end result of the war was to trigger the ever-expanding power of the federal government (at the cost of the individual states) and the link (for all time, apparently) between states rights and slavery.

I firmly believe you can espouse states’ rights and be firmly against slavery, but very few today understand the difference. Government schools have taught for decades that states’ rights is a code word for slavery. Subsequently, anyone that espouses states’ rights is put automatically on the defensive to prove they are not racists. Guilty until proven innocent.

As a result of the war, the federal government began to extract taxes from the several states. Anti-federalists in the late 1770’s only intended for states to levy taxes against their own people, but not for the feds to do it to the states themselves.

The Confederate states were perfectly Constitutional in their move to secede from the Union. Lincoln invoked martial law and usurped congressional power more than once, he shut down opposition newspapers (1st Amend?).

Are the Stars & Bars racist? I think they are. Was the Civil War a mistake? I think it was - in the sense it was the birth of the Leviathan Federal gov’t. - in the sense that slavery was dying out in the south as it began.

Slavery is wrong in any form, but it was a sin our very young nation carried with it from its inception to the mid-1800s. I am glad we are beyond it, but in many ways, the cure has been as bad as the disease itself.

Posted by: torpedo_eight at November 5, 2003 08:26 PM

The cause of the Civil War depends upon who you talk to.

For a southerner, the Civil War was started because of slavery. More to the point, the Civil War was started because the Southern elites were paranoid the north would eventually outlaw the practice.

The North eventually adopted abolition as a justification for the war but this didn’t come until fairly late in the game. For them, reunification and the repudiation of secession was very important.

Basically, the whole thing was because the Southern leadership overreacted to the presidency of Abraham Lincoln. While Lincoln would have been unfriendly to slaveholders, he probably never would have directed the country to outlaw the process.

—-

Back on topic, I think its important for the Demos to attract the NASCAR generation and there’s nothing wrong with aiming for the Southern white vote. Bush’s economic policies aren’t helping the Southern man much and, with Dean’s pro-gun policies, maybe some common ground can be found.

And I wish other party members would lay off of the ‘confed flag’ statement. I can appreciate that various black people would find the flag offensive. However, many white people in the south carry that symbol around without any sort of hateful thought.

Posted by: eh at November 5, 2003 09:41 PM

The war was not fought over slavery but was fought over the south’s right to maintain their freedom of trade and to fight the tarriffs and abuse of power from the north. Also If you want ot look at it more balcks were sold under the old Americian flag then the confederate flag as that became the flag of choice for the south during the war. I live in Canada and it is funny how I seem to know more about your civil war then some of your readers.

Posted by: Ken Anderson at November 5, 2003 10:00 PM

If the War Between the States had been about slavery, then Lincoln would have ensured the Emancipation Proclamation freed all the slaves in the US, not just those in the Confederacy. Slaves in the Northern and border States were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The EP was intended to cause an uprising in hopes that slaves would kill Southern whites (genocide). Actually several border states passed laws to keep freed slaves from entering into their state. And Lincoln had no plan to integrate a huge population of uneducated and dependent people into the mainstream of the country. It was a last desperate act to end the War and hold the Union together.

Only about 10% of the Southern landowners owned slaves. To believe that the other 90% of the population fought and died to keep slavery in place when they didn’t own any slaves is foolish.

The War was about Tax, Tariffs and State Rights. The South was dissatisfied with paying more into the Federal coffers (something like 76% of all Federal revenue) than they were getting back in Federal funds (something like 23%) and desired to reduce the tariffs at their ports to increase trade.

The Confederate Flag symbolizes the sacrifices my ancestors made in pursuit of their rights. I’m proud of them for fighting for what they believed in.

On thread - Dean’s display of bigotry is an example of why the Democratic Party has died in the South.

Posted by: TexasGal at November 6, 2003 01:42 AM

Thanks for the refresher courses…..it’s been a few years since ‘History 101’.

Soooo….from what I gather, the whole uproar about the confederate flag, (not just now, it’s been going on for years,) is just an attempt by some to create something to whine about…..possibly with the exception of African Americans, who might see it as a reminder of unpleasantness?

I would rather believe that today, the flag is used only to signify ‘the South’, for harmless, good spirited reasons.

Posted by: Jeff B at November 6, 2003 03:04 PM

But then, that makes me wonder why Dean would say “for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks.” What type of character is he catagorizing?

Them there Dukes of Hazard???? :)

Posted by: Boss Hog at November 6, 2003 03:55 PM

History 102:
Actually, the slave trade existed under the American Flag. By the time the Confederacy was born through secession the US Government had stopped the expansion of slavery to the Western Territory and outlawed the importation of slaves into the United States. So if there was a Flag that supported the slave trade to the US, it was the American Flag.

Posted by: TexasGal at November 6, 2003 04:21 PM

I wrote last week that there is plenty of time in Primary 2004 for Dean to falter, such that Clark could still easily win the nomination.

I myself am shocked at how stupid Dean has behaved the last 10 days, the election is his to lose. However, even if he completely self-destructs, I don’t think Clark has a chance of winning the Democratic primary. He and Graham are probably the front-runners for the Democratic VP nomination, but I can’t imagine a scenario where Clark wins the primary.

Posted by: Admiral Quixote at November 6, 2003 09:41 PM

Whats the big deal about the falg why is it sacred speech and a nono thats just stupid Im a proud Southerner born and in the Heart of Dixie (Alabama) and have a family of proud confederate veterans and proudly fly a confederate flag in my room and have a sticker in my room I and family never habve don’t how and will never support racism and slavery but it is wrong to equate every southerner during the civil war era who fought for tghe south as wealthy racism slave holders My family history has grown up in the south they never had slaves were bever racist but yet fought for the south bsed on states rights tarrifs preserving agriculture their of life the only one they knew how to live fighting for your state where you ohysically life and other family is fighting for to save to family and for nationalism something people not born or rasied here might now know something about they might but might not how come a few bad apples make it bad and everyone get steyotyped there are good american patriotic and confederit pide anti racist states rights good church going godly men and women who also fly confederate flags that does not makes us racist and if someone sayes it does then there wrong already because I dont fit that mold (sterotype) Im not for slavery or racism but I proudly fly the confederate flag and will not back down from my heritage for anyone

Posted by: Jonathan Bennett at November 7, 2003 02:22 PM

The Confederate Flag symbolizes one thing only. That is secession from the union. Anyone flying the flag is portraying that image no matter what. That flag would not have existed if no states ever seceeded from the union.

Slavery was a problem back then and so was having Union troops located in southern states and the south’s lack of trust in the voting process and the feelings of being disenfranchised in the economy.

But all of that doesn’t matter. In my view. You fly the Confederate Flag then you’d better be prepared to explain why you want your own state to seceed from the union?

Posted by: Jeff MacMillan at November 8, 2003 10:47 PM

The Confederate Flag has always stood for secession of the union, break up of the union, and is most certainly not patriotic in anyway to the America of today as we know it.

Therefore… This choice that Howard Dean made to side with the Confederate Flag Flying Kooks just for votes is yet another act of anti-americanism.

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