The Command Post - 2004 US Presidential Election

July 14, 2003

On The Latino Vote

The Christian Science Monitor offers an interesting analysis of the role of the Latino vote here. A sample:

Democrats have historically commanded a majority of the Latino vote, but not as resoundingly as they win the black vote, which is more than 90 percent Democratic. In 2000, Bush won more of the Hispanic vote (35 percent) than previous Republican presidential nominees. In that election, Hispanics represented 7 percent of voters and blacks 10 percent of voters. If noncitizen Hispanics in the US were to gain citizenship and register, the number of Hispanic voters would double, according to the Pew Hispanic Center in Washington. Hispanics - people of Latin American or Spanish descent - are America's fastest-growing demographic group. During the 1990s, their population grew 58 percent.

Posted by Alan at July 14, 2003 08:57 PM | TrackBack

Comments

Yuppers. And the ActivistElement is out to move CA to MEXICO, too. I think we ought to tighten up some porous borders, myself. They want to live here, they play by our rules. I wonder what the out-migration stats are for CA. I wonder what the breakdown is on that number. Anybody else wondering?

Posted by: Dave Dub� at July 15, 2003 01:08 PM

Yes, let’s tighten those porous borders. From now on, an electric fence around Florida to keep those annoying Cubans out.

Tighten security along the Canadian border.

Post guards on at all gates from flights on British Airways, Aer Lingus, Lufthansa, Swissair, Finnair and Alitalia. Double check all papers. Have police issue arrest warrants if they over stay their visas.

Anyone from any country who remains in the US after their tourist/student visa expires will be instantly jailed. I was INS to redeploy troups to search and deport anyone who is here on an expired visa. Start hunting those scofflaws from Albania … and check the list alphabetically until you get to Zimbabwe.

America for Americans!

Posted by: WorldTraveler at July 15, 2003 04:11 PM

The only American’s I see or know of are Indian, the rest of us came here for what ever reason. My family on father side came over because of religous rights, mother’s side came over during the Irish potato famine, we are a country of immigrants. I was also shocked at my last trip home to NE Missouri, the majority is hispanic because of the chicken plants (Tyson), but after my inital “oh my ” gained my senses & remembered what my vision of America is.

Posted by: sophia at July 15, 2003 09:54 PM

Sophia

I think World Traveller was being facetious.

BTW, didn’t Tyson get nailed not long ago for employing hugh numbers of illegal aliens?

Posted by: Seth at July 15, 2003 11:42 PM

Just to spout off, I’m for the “tightening of porous borders” while simultaneously expediting the visa-granting and/or naturalization process.

Illegal immigrants skew the statistics used to make public decisions, deplete the tax base, and evade the legal protections on quality of life.

If their lives are so much better here in America, despite the lack of an enforced minimum wage, compensation for overtime, and occupational safety requirements, then America needs to reconsider its labor laws in general — are we raising the bar so high we just can’t compete with the rest of the world? Continuing to complacently ignore our illegal immigrant population prolongs that reckoning; while our legal workers continue to live an artificially high standard of living maintained by the economic input of these laborers.

That’s right, Fellow Worker, you are a leech, living high on the hog thanks to the labor of these illegal immigrants, who give up their lives back home so they can live their locally-substandard existences here to support your largesse.

I don’t know Dave’s personal opinion, but WorldTraveler, along with other ranters of his sort, need to pay careful attention to the difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant, and also need to tone down their straw man/slippery slope argument. They make me nauseous.

Posted by: TBox at July 16, 2003 09:31 AM

TBox
Granted, I got up reallllly early today for a breakfast business thing, and I’m feeling the lack of sleep, and perhaps that’s rendering me somewhat obtuse, but….

How do the labors of an illegal immigrant, who’s not even supposed to BE here let alone WORK here, earning coolie wages by choice(better money than he can make within the geographic subdivision in which he BELONGS) make an equally hard working LEGAL employee into a leech?

Posted by: Seth at July 16, 2003 02:49 PM

Let’s take Tyson’s Chicken for an example. Please note this is an example; I have done no checking as to whether Tyson’s is really guilty of large scale immigrant labor abuse.

Tyson’s has two slaughterhouses: A and B. A is legit, with Unionized employees, limited hours, and a good safety record. B is staffed with illegal immigrants, earning “coolie” wages, working continual overtime, and in unsafe conditions. Not only does B produce more of that tasty, succulent, heat-and-serve chicken we all know and love (ahem), but they get more profit per chicken when compared to plant A because of the lower overhead costs.

Where does that profit go? Some, of course, goes into the pockets of the executives who set up Factory B. Some “funds” a lowering of chicken prices to make Tyson’s chicken more competitive on the market. Some — and here’s the important bit — goes to subsidizing factory A, propping up Union wages, and funding worker benefits such as health insurance and the pension plan.

In fact, because Tyson’s big competitor Purdue is likely doing the same thing; in the spirit of the free market, equilibrium will most likely be reached such that Factory A is losing money, and would close and/or undergo radical changes should Factory B stop existing.

Greedy capitalist pigs like illegal immigrants because they don’t have to pay them fair salaries or maintain safe and fair working conditions.

Selfish socialist sheep like illegal immigrants because the immigrants’ contribution to society helps prop up their artificially high standard of living — a standard of living they wouldn’t be able to support on their own if everyone had to follow the same rules.

Illegal immigrant cattle like illegal immigrants, because, despite* their piss poor working conditions, their quality of life is *still better than it was.

Welcome to Nash equilibrium, barnyard style.

Why do I not like illegal immigrants? Because I firmly believe…

o. the total increase in the quality of life of all legalized immigrants would be much larger than the decrease in quality of life of currently legal immigrants, and that said decrease in quality of life would not be significant to the vast majority of Americans.

o. the increase in the legal tax base would go a significant distance towards solving some of the states’ financial woes.

o. if handled properly, INS could operate at full effectiveness with a decreased budget, which is only good.

Even if I am absolutely, completely wrong in my first belief, I have the moral argument that it is wrong for the legal citizens — both white and blue collar — to line their pockets, as it were, at the expense of immigrants, even if the immigrants are more than happy to play a role in the affair.

Posted by: TBox at July 16, 2003 05:03 PM

TBox - There are some who will toot out the label ‘I-SO-LA-TION-IST’ on you!

Posted by: Dave Dub� at July 16, 2003 05:46 PM

LOL
I’d give good odds on it.

Posted by: Seth at July 16, 2003 07:04 PM

But here’s the thing: If the “powers that be” are using illegal immigrants to produce the products in Factory B, given the Law of the Land, they certainly aren’t going to tell the workers in Factory A about it;
1. Because they’d raise a great clamor over the fact that Union Labor was not being employed in Factory B, which might bring some unwanted attention to said illegal immigrants in Factory B, and
2. Because someone in Factory A might tell tales out of school, which could ALSO bring the dreaded unwanted attention to the illegal immigrants in Factory B.

Therefore, the Union workers in Factory A aren’t leeches, at least not witting ones, since they don’t KNOW about aforementioned illegal laborers(in Factory B).

Posted by: Seth at July 16, 2003 07:11 PM

The East Germans knew how to seal a border.

Too bad they reunited with West Germany. We could really use their expertise.

I suppose there is always the North Koreans. Maybe that is the deal we are hearing rumors about. The North Koreans will be providing border security for America.

It could work.

Posted by: M. Simon at July 16, 2003 07:32 PM

M. Simon

If we could get around a few minor internal political hurdles, the E. German or NK methods would work just fine.
Let’s do it!

Posted by: Seth at July 16, 2003 07:49 PM

Um, Isolationist? I told you, I’m for legalizing them, not turning them away. Let them come, all of them. Just let them pay taxes, too.

Good point, Seth. I admit to getting a little emotional in my zealotry, and ask forgiveness that it affected my thinking.

Still, it baffles me how anyone can condone illegal immigration and feel morally secure in any way.

Posted by: TBox at July 17, 2003 08:54 AM

Delayed brain fart.

//legalized immigrants would be much larger than the decrease in quality of life of currently legal immigrants,//

shoudl read

//legalized immigrants would be… quality of life of currently legal workers//

That is, all us locals included.

Posted by: TBox at July 17, 2003 08:58 AM

I don’t consider it isolationist, however, to take care of ones own people(ie those who are already here and legally eligible to work) as a prerequisite to adding additional work force to the population.
California alone has a high unemployment rate, accented heavily by the decline of jobs in the high tech industries and that trickledown to the supply and retail sides of the same equation. People from those areas are, driven by the most basic need, that of survival, crossing over into other areas of endeavor, even many that compensate them only a fraction of what their previous jobs did.
These crossovers are, in turn, displacing others who are on the skill levels of those jobs, who in turn have to downgrade their own income levels in order to earn a living.
Result: A scramble. I have a lot of friends who’ve been caught up in this “quagmire”. People who can’t find new jobs in their fields have to downgrade to try making ends meet, and many of those go to labor, retail jobs, whatever they need to do.
Now factor in all those jobs that have been(and others that are BEING) exported to other countries.
We are not going to solve an unemployment problem when the hiring market is shrinking by increasing the size of the work force.
I’m sure some ignoramus with an Economics degree ala Paul Krugman could come along with graphs and charts and dispute this, but I think reality, in this case, wins out over theory.
“Give us your tired, your poor” only works when you regulate immigration, not just open the damn flood gates. You can’t increase the tax base by increasing the number of unemployed citizens, and that is exactly what our open borders are doing where California is concerned. It’s not the working man that’s the “leech”, TBox- it’s the guy who has no compunction about hiring illegals and it’s the democrat who wants to expand his voting base by legalising a few million illegal immigrants.
Have you read anything re what the illegal immigrant population is doing to hospitals here in California?
Because they’re not legal, they can’t get health insurance, so they go to emergency rooms, where they can’t be turned away, for all their routine medical situations. The hospitals have no social services venues to send the bills to and have to eat all the costs, and at the same time legal citizens have to wait hours and hours to be treated for more serious problems. The collective expense has been forcing some hospitals, for purely fiscal reasons, to close their walk- in emergency clinics, which doesn’t help anybody. Hospitals are, after all, a business, and doctors have huge college debts and high malpractice insurance to pay. They’re not missionaries, and they don’t all bust their asses at expensive universities for purely charitable reasons.
In short, the illegal immigrant problem is a very serious one, and needs to be aggressively addressed as such.
Making them all legal would be great for the democrats, because it would increase their voting base, but it would come at great tragedy to millions of American citizens and those legally here.
Not that the democrats could give a shit, they’re mostly concerned with their own political interests.

Posted by: Seth at July 17, 2003 11:34 AM

The funny thing is, I’m mostly Republican.

In that cold black rock where I house the remains of my soul, I feel that if enough people move in to the nation, soon the labor market will be so glutted, as you say, that eventually it will crash, and the resulting shambles will be so unappealing that people will stop moving to America. Immigration problem “solved.”

The reason everyone wants to work in America, and the reason why we’re losing our jobs to places overseas, is because the Labor market is supported at unnaturally, unsustainably high levels. Either it has to come down, or the rest of the world will have to come up. Since we have very little control over the rest of the world, how can we bring our labor market down? Preferably without an economic crash. Okay, opening the gates wide is kinda stupid, I said it cuz I was offended at being called isolationist, but it would work. The market would crash spectacularly. Letting these illegal immigrants sit in our country is, as I mentioned, helping to support our unnaturally high labor market. They need to be gotten rid of. One way is to simply make them legal, another is to “forcibly export” them. We may have to be like Gargamel and the Smurfs. Bake a few, boil a few, and turn the rest into gold. Okay, that’s a bad metaphor. Forget I said it.

Any other options for illegal immigrants?

Posted by: TBox at July 17, 2003 04:18 PM

Yup.

See 16 July 2003, 7:32 P.M.
Posted by M. Simon

Posted by: Seth at July 17, 2003 04:36 PM

as soon as i saw this topic i knew it was only a matter of time before someone brought up the smurfs.

Posted by: wafflestomper at July 17, 2003 06:01 PM

Izzat so, Wafflestomper? Why?

(I ask out of a sociological curiosity.)

Posted by: TBox at July 18, 2003 04:45 PM

Sometimes I wonder if the majority of Americans, especially Republicans, even seemingly intelligent ones understand the concept of sarcasm. Ask any Brit and they will clearly tell you that the whole entire message by World Traveler was entirely sarcastic. You are not supposed to get naitious. You are supposed to laugh. Because it was very well written and “wicked funny”, as you like to say. For those who still don’t get it the WT was making fun of isolationists by pretending to be an isolationist to an extreme.

Posted by: ranndino at September 25, 2003 02:26 AM

this shit is stupid!!!!!!

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